Thursday, June 18, 2009

Another archive for your amusement

You may remember the November 2007 Telegraph article on Garrett Lisi. I don't want anything to happen to the comments, so I'm preserving them here. [Note added July 26, 2010: Telegraph has deleted all 615 comments! Now they are only available here on El Naschie Watch.]

The infamous sockpuppet "Brad" really gets around. Just on Wednesday June 17 he added to this old thread the same one-paragraph screed that we've noticed him posting elsewhere.

Dan Winter, the guy El Naschie admires who lectures about how DNA causes gravity, and about intelligent reptile races from Orion, shows up to support El Naschie as well! Look for the note I highlighted in red.

Comments that readers will be interested in (all or virtually all are pro El Naschie) are highlighted in green to make them easier to find.

Comments: 615
I wonder how this relates to Gogol Bordello's

"Super Theory of Super Everything"
on December 30, 2009
at 11:16 PM

My last post was around two years ago. Since then I've been work it out over an over again. But my answer always comes up as 43?!!

What on earth am I doing wrong? Is 42 some sort of joke answer? Well Ha Ha very funny if that's the case! Very funny indeed I think not.

Nothing to do with turtles all the way up is it?

Oh well Lisi seems to know what he's doing. Love the role reversal of the schrodinger's experiment Lisi! See:
on December 22, 2009
at 08:09 PM

@ sridattadev kancharla

You're an idiot.
The Raque
on December 17, 2009
at 07:42 AM

Since we're interested in patterns here...Isn't it cool how smart people live in their vans on the Hawaiian islands in beautiful monogamous relationships with sexy women and think up genuinely intriguing and spine-tingling mathematical conceptions of the secret things of actual stuff?

Here's to BOTH Garrett Lisi AND Nassim Harramein.

I'd like to eat mushrooms with them in Kalalau!
on December 15, 2009
at 02:26 PM

Good Morning!!! is one of the most outstanding innovative websites of its kind. I take advantage of reading it every day. I will be back.
cash advance
on December 12, 2009
at 08:54 PM

The campaign against El Naschie is now coming to a head. His solicitors in London were able to successfully issue a very strong Writ against Nature’s defamatory article. This article was described by many leading figures in science and law as a tabloid stuff which should never have been published in a respectable science magazine like Nature. The mere fact that a leading British law firm has taken such a serious action and is suing the leading scientific magazine in the world, Nature, for libel is in itself an indication that Mohamed El Naschie is innocent and that the whole thing against him was orchestrated by the establishment. In this respect I must say that the establishment is a very wide term which means many conflicting things. Never the less if Prof. Mohamed El Naschie wins his case, it will be a victory for scientific freedom from the button pushing and string pulling of the representatives of conventional wisdom. It will be a nice reward for the courage of people like Garrett Lisi and those who are similarly inclined. For more information see the article of Sarah Limbrick ( as well as the article published in the Royal Soc. by T.N. Palmer as mentioned by Scot in a comment of October 22, 2009.

on December 04, 2009
at 11:09 AM

There are things in this universe bigger than us. Garrett Lisi can inpsire people to believe we can achieve amazing things.
I love astral projection so much that I wrote an article on the topic.

Please Read it
on December 01, 2009
at 04:40 PM

) Infinite universes with individual time/dimensions are created by a system of dispersion or "big-bangs" fed from a single commonality consisting of all matter, time, light, gravity et al from a infinite amount of universes and dimensions broken down to a single static state fed by a infinite amount of "black holes" which themselves exist in infinite number of dimensions/universes. Picture a infinite time/dimension sponge

) A common singularity of life exist therefore developed after infinite time to adjust to all conditions presented to it by infinite universe/dimensions/black holes through evolution. This singularity of life has evolved to a state from which no further evolution can occur. This life would have a form that could exist in the state of commonality and thus in all universe/dimensions. Since time is infinite in reverse this has already happened, all life is therefore redundant and is simply going through the motions. This singularity of life could be what we think of as God.
charles Hanson
on November 28, 2009
at 06:34 AM

Bible=mathematical perfection =could not be wrtten by imperfect man...See Jerry Lucas, all American Basketball player=Theomatics.....also see Bible Code. perfect perfection!!!!! These evidences are astounding proof that we have a God who dearly loves us! We are not an accident.... we are part of His loving plan for eternity!He loves you! LOVE=HIS CREATION.... LOVE IS NOT AN EVOLVEMENT. EVOLUTION IS A LIE TO DEPOPULATE THE EARTH FOR.. THE GEORGIA GUIDESTONES........ NEW WORLD ORDER...A FULLFILLMENT OF BIBLE PROPHECY FOR THE END TIMES..
cheri hamilton
on November 27, 2009
at 06:05 AM

Some things are beyond man...

I see countless theories with no real answers...and so it shall remain...

just as man will never be able to build a computer to come close to the human brain, so we shall continue to guess and to labor and to guess...

We are talking about an incredible intelligence and power that created the universe...and that same power continues to hold it together...strong forces, weak forces, etc....simple feeble attempts by man to label that which he does not nor ever will fully understand....

It is God of which I speak...and he came in the form of Christ and continues to create and master the laws of physics?yes even at the sub atomic particle level?.

The answer is very simple...but I doubt you are interested because we cannot create industries from its simplicity....and yet you so quickly dismiss this concept as it has real mastery over you...

In the book called the Bible is the answer:

"In Him all things hold together".... Colossians 1
on November 24, 2009
at 06:09 AM

Everybody has a theory.My question is Where is the big hole? For every supermassive explosion or colapse there is always a blackhole.If the big bang theory is true where is the hole?
Deron Sayre
on November 22, 2009
at 06:07 AM

Dear All,

I have been following the work of several of the prominent scientists to come up with a theory of everything. It seems that in this search of everything, one most important thing has not been considered. Who am I? I am in this universe as much as it is in me.

Imagination is more important than knowledge for all that we know is just an imagination. Mind travels faster than light. It is not mind over matter, it is only mind that matters.

If universe is the meaning of understanding of one?s surroundings, then it is created with every birth and destroyed with every death. Universe is in a steady big bang state. The moment a thought arises the universe comes to existence. If one can still the mind to absoluteness then there will be absolutely nothing.

That absolute state of mind is the Soul (spirit) with in all of us. Relativity of thougths is what makes the physical world. Everything has a mind of its own, Nothing is mind itself. If life is the meaning of our relative existence on this planet then we were all dead even before we were born, so why fear death as we all have already experienced death.

According to E=MC2, mass gets converted to energy when it travels at squared the speed of light. Thoughts travel faster than light and are continually getting converted to Mass or reality. Reality as it seems can be termed delayed implementation of imagination. Human brain is one of the best particle accelerator nature has created, for we use it to contiuously convert mass (food we eat) to energy (thoughts we get). S=BM2 (S-Soul, B-Body, M-Mind). Create a body with a thought, destroy the body with a thought and find the innermost self, Soul. As light can not escape black holes gravity and time stops in a black hole, so does a dead man can?t see light or has no sense of time.

On this planet only one being, human, seems to care for Time dimension while all other species do not. If we only understand the perception of other beings dimensions sharing this planet would we appreciate the beauty of it all. There can be as many dimensions as we choose to have.

For every action there is equal and opposite reaction, there is also inaction at the point of their interaction.

Dark Matter / Dark Energy are only as dark as our thoughts. Lets weigh our thoughts in and we would have the total mass of the universe.

Some think that universe is expanding
some think that universe is contracting
some think that universe is eternal
I know that universe is what we want it to be.

The theory of everthing is that there is absolutely nothing.
God is absolute state of mind, soul that is everything and nothing.
We are relative states of mind, bodies that are something in between.

Truth is simple
accepting it is not.

sridattadev kancharla
on November 04, 2009
at 08:16 PM

It seems that you are still talking about the surfer dude alias Garrett Lisi. It might be therefore in order to update you on what has happened to El Naschie. The latest theory by British Physicist T. N. Palmer seems to make a great deal of use of El Naschie?s theory. Palmer as Garnett Ord, Laurent Nottale and M. S. El Naschie attribute the mystery of quantum mechanics to the fractal nature of its dynamic. If a phase space is fractal then by various well known theorems one can easily deduce the fractal nature of space time itself. Palmer?s paper is published in nothing less than the proceedings of the Royal Institute and has been highly praised by A. Zee and many other notable scientists all apart of Michael Berry who is the editor in chief of the proceedings of the Royal Society. For whatever it is worth, the paper is titled: The Invariant Set Postulate: a new geometric framework for the foundations of quantum theory and the role played by gravity by T. N. Palmer, Proc. R. Soc. A published online 29 July 2009; doi:10/1098/rspa.2009.0080. I do find the barrage of unqualified and ignorant criticism directed towards Mohamed El Naschie, his colleagues and Garrett Lisi disgraceful. No doubt it is an expression of the darker and malignant side of self styled bloggers who are the business of getting rid of their frustrations by defaming almost everybody.

on October 22, 2009
at 09:57 PM

The real theory of everything is the paradigm that integrates science, which is located at:
Stephen Mooney
on October 04, 2009
at 02:04 PM

If you press Alt, Then F4, this will show you the theory.
Jesus Christ
on September 10, 2009
at 10:12 PM

I have interesting discoveries in the life of TOE I'd like to apply, The term Super Teacher first, Laws like Time Space count up of all possibilities that matter can relate with, A rubik cube has a valuable coorilation to these laws, too unify all the theories under one big theory, 1 every possibility must happen and if possible simultaniously, 2 grouping all scientific knowledge to make room for TOE,
3 if there is a finite matter it must reset itself after everything has happened, 4 Time is most important to those who are short of it, iei organismz that have knowledege of self become immersed in self realization, the self of TOE must realize the absolute value of self in paranormal senses, 5 TOE can be tested with electromagnetic instrumentation, for all life lives in this spectrum all matter exists in this spectrum. 6 Humans apon their TOE will unify a telepathic unison with knowledge that is contained in TOE and once TOE has become common the incling itself will direct the immensity of total reality. 7 Governments may have some trouble initially because of the radicalism of a supreme superteacher ability that has reached TOE capacitiy, 8 TOE is a result of all recordable information readily availible at any notice and in the cognative powers of any individual who by electrospectro infusion will become an organic inductor any information recorded on all matter will be subject to sub and supra concious, the socio and phsycological implications are varied some will simply become dillusional others might not feel effected, But with the freequency of telepathic transmitions increased the human mind will abapt to recieve without the aid of electronics, once man know the possibility is there their will shall create it.
dennis putman
on August 12, 2009
at 06:42 PM

the string theory has to many dimensions to be functionally correct,maybe e8 is correct,its simplicity is more likely to be true than not,every thing has symmetry.just look deep enough and you will see it
on August 04, 2009
at 04:12 PM

What nonsense this is. How can gelileyo be wrong? What an idiot with the e8 wait til I meet him I'll show him wats up.

Come on guys don't believe this guys rubbish he hasn't learnt it yet!!! The theory of everything dont exist
Carl Pain
on August 02, 2009
at 04:50 PM

Jennifer, it's probably because this article has been stumbled.
on August 02, 2009
at 02:52 PM

Why is this in the 'most viewed of the day' slot - nearly two years later??

I often notice very old 'news' on the front page of the internet Telegraph. Why?
on August 02, 2009
at 09:21 AM

It seems to me TOE must be within any complete definition of the Nature of the Universe. That is, by completing all that we know of the Universe we live in - have lived in - will live in - must completely surround/engulf TOE. This does not mean that TOE will be known. But rather, we will have the means - the tools - the equations to encompass TOE. Toe will have to wait for how, when, where, and what created the atomic and sub-atomic particles which combine into the matter we see around us and tear apart in our colliders.
Colin C Ware
on August 01, 2009
at 08:53 PM

It seems most great concepts of physics come from men/women who aren't saturated with numbers and theories.

This is a man I'd like to talk with over a few cups of coffee.

Congratulations and my gratitude, Lisi!
on August 01, 2009
at 05:38 PM

Spotting silly patterns doesn't tell us how it happened, creation that is. This has a better chance of being closer to the reality of it. ...... who made the water surfer dude?
The Dude
on August 01, 2009
at 05:23 PM

You lot are SO envious that theres someone cleverer than yourself around;why not simply be impressed rather than post stuff thats meant to point out that youre as clever-go on- be a man- admit your ignorance and enjoy someone elses achievement!
david prothero
on August 01, 2009
at 05:16 PM

I knew all this years ago, but forgot to tell you.
on August 01, 2009
at 02:59 PM

I have high hopes of Mr Lisi's Theory of Everything. It may even help us understand how and why our MPs fiddle their expenses, rob the taxpayer, and then give themselves money they don't have to account for and refuse to tell the voters about it. If it can do that it will at least have achieved something. May I suggest Mr Lisi includes in his maths the following simple formula for making yourself rich at the voters' expense. E (Expenses) = m (mendacity) + c(charlatanism)squared. Or to put it another way E=MC2 = House of Commons puts two fingers up at British Public.
Charles Langley
on August 01, 2009
at 06:23 AM

What everyone needs to remember is that Einstein wasn't 'right' either! Science, especially science heavily wedded to mathematics, doesn't go from one correct idea to the next. The most persuasive theory (more usually the most useful, whatever those uses might be)wins out.
For more see Collins and Pinch, The Golem
on July 31, 2009
at 06:29 PM


on June 21, 2009
at 01:58 PM

You are talking about John Baez and someone mentioned Mohamed El Naschie so let me tell you that. It is really more than depressing to see in which publicity and media society we are living. Some wrote a great deal and I am sure with good intention. Unfortunately whether they realize it or not, they relied entirely upon hearsay. I am afraid they are being used without their knowledge to publicize what a determined little clique want the world to believe. If you are interested in facts then here are the facts. Mohamed El Naschies work was plagiarized by a group who wrote a paper published about a year or so ago in Scientific American. The group leader is Dr. Renate Loll. She works with the Nobel laureate Gerard ?tHooft in Utrecht. She is originally German and worked in Max Blanc Inst. near Berlin. She knows Prof. El Naschie very well. Many years ago El Naschie gave a lecture in her Max Blanc Inst. in Germany. That is the first connection. The second connection is that El Naschie is a very close personal and scientific friend of Gerard ?tHooft. Without his knowledge many scientists, students and collaborators of El Naschie wrote angry letters and comments to Scientific American complaining about Loll. This was quite embarrassing for Renate Loll and many of her friends came to her rescue. It was also embarrassing for Nobel laureate Gerard ?tHooft because Renate got 1.2 million Euro prize for this work in addition to a 2.4 million Euro grant research money for the Inst. of Gerard ?tHooft. In a cloak and dagger action decision was taken to punish and discredit El Naschie. That is how the whole thing started. The one man internet army John Baez was called to direct the attacks and a meticulous plan was drawn involving Nature, the Inst. of Physics, UK and finally Die Zeit in Germany. All this failed to reach the ultimate goal and now they are baffled as to how El Naschie could sustain all these attacks and stay stedfast. If you check you will find that Die Zeit first modified their article, then withdrew it. In addition El Naschie won a case in Munich against Die Zeit and another case in Hamburg is about to be won. It is established beyond any doubt that Christoph Drosser, the journalist of Die Zeit was lying. He was lying to help his friend also a German named Quirin Schiermeier who works for Nature. Nature has realized that they have been conned. They withdrew their article from the internet. There is a case pending in the High Court in London. El Naschie is a victim of a colossal defamation campaign led by all the above. Now to the facts about him. He is a scientifically and financially totally independent person since he was 30. He is now 66 and has run the journal for two decades. He neither needs promotion, nor fame nor in fact money. He got his Diploma in structural engineering from the University of Hannover. He got his Ph.D. from University College London in 1974. He was a student of Lord Henry Chilver who was the science advisor of Margaret Thatcher. He was invited to join Cambridge. He never applied nor needed to apply for a job anywhere, including Cambridge. He has published about 900 papers and his average productivity dropped when he became the Editor in Chief of Chaos, Solitons & Fractals which he founded. Chaos, Solitons & Fractals is still being produced and carries the name of Mohamed El Naschie and his papers are still being published. Scientific questions of the merit of his work should be discussed in scientific papers, not on blogs devoted to gossip. None the less, here we are. We live in a world it seems controlled by gossip. I am in Google, thus I am. It is really sad, extremely sad and the most sad point about it is that the truth nowadays is a function of repetition and publicity. John Baez notorious article about El Naschie disappeared and so did all the other articles. However from this evil defamatory article, millions of other articles mushroomed and the truth is totally lost. Then a year or two later these gossips land on your desk and you try to rationalize the irrational but all that you have done was really planned for you to do without your knowledge. I hope these facts do not depress you as it does depress me and I hope you check everything for yourself. Do not jump into conclusions. Just remember what Hitlers propaganda minister said. When you make a lie, make it so big that most people will say it is impossible for it to be a lie. Mohamed El Naschie was a great guy for twenty years running the journal which he founded for all that time. All of a sudden, after the publication of Renate Loll?s paper, everything changed and John Baez and his Zoran Skoda, the self appointed guardian of science has nothing else to do lately except defame El Naschie, his collaborators and students.
Best regards,

on June 17, 2009
at 07:14 PM

Very nice site!
on April 14, 2009
at 11:30 AM

take a look at this site "Your Religion & Aliens", there is someone so-called Moran, he is talking about Science and semi-humans, he published it in 1996, maybe you can get something.
on March 20, 2009
at 12:19 PM

I don't dissagree with his theory at all. I just think he needs to be more open minded to possibilities. He also needs to refine his theory. Of course thats just my opinion.
on February 22, 2009
at 08:38 AM

Right or wrong?

Theory of Everything

? 2008, D. Ertle

The THEORY OF EVERYTHING allows a person to understand the basic laws of creation from a single vantage point. There is no need to use multiple partial theories to gain a perspective concerning the basis of everything physical.

It appears the equation c = h is able to do that. The value of speed "c" also describes a particular value of energy "h".

In the equation E = mc^2, a person may wonder why an acceleration of mass would equal that of a particular value of energy, or why in the equation for a field of gravity, c^2 = E/m, the end result is that of a particular speed, when in fact the force of gravity performs work. It expresses a particular value of velocity "c" to the exclusion of work energy "h".

The physics trilogy describes the basis of creation, the values God used in the formation of our physical universe. The trilogy is:

m = E/c^2, and E = mc^2. The basis of each of the first two equations is that of physical time "c", a duration of physical existence. Notice that mass and energy are able to change value in these equations, but the value of "c" (time) does not change value. When multiplying mass time that of the constant "c", the value of "h" is automatically given it, converting "c" to "h".

c^2 = E/m. This third value is that for a field of gravity. The "c^2" describes that the energy of "h" moves at the speed of light "c". c = h may be used one way or another in an equation, but not both ways for the exact same value ? both are the same value.

At there is a video "Gravitational Constant" that may be of interest. There are other science videos also by "Stcorridon".
on February 17, 2009
at 06:24 PM

Hello. And Bye.
on February 12, 2009
at 12:47 PM

I have always suspected that the answer to TOE was more simple that the physics community would let on. Sometimes as human beings we trip over our many accomplishments aka degrees trying to find what has been under our nose all along.
Margaret Barton-Wahl
on January 21, 2009
at 10:27 AM

To Said
As I understood that El naschie
is a very rich man. So he can establish a publishing compand calling it Elnaschievier to compete with Elsevier in publishing science frontiers.

on December 21, 2008
at 12:39 PM

This is a direct answer to Ben Webster, Ph.D. 2007. What I find remarkable that a young researcher who just got his Ph.D. from an Ivy League University, Princeton is writing about a subject completely outside his own expertise. It is true El Naschie uses knot theory among many other things mainly non linear dynamics to model high energy physics. However, you are almost a pure mathematician working in a department of pure mathematics. Therefore you should be critical enough not to commit yourself to such common language and summary judgment belittling people whose work you would never understand without serious studies that will take you at least three years. When will people writing on blogs stop behaving like vandalists smearing the walls of public sanitary facilities with obscene words and pictures. At least this I would have thought is beneath Princeton, dear Webster.
J Brown

on December 21, 2008
at 12:37 PM

on December 18, 2008
at 06:52 PM

Hey spare time surfer individual!

Also known as Garrett Lisi also known as the surfer dude.

If you look at the first turtle's foremost chipped left toe nail. The angle it makes with the ground is 42 degrees!

The one above is on the spirograph. And the one above that looks decidedly chilly. she's wearing a scarf and a knitted hat with a pattern on it. I can only see a bit of it but it looks just like that picture of E8 above.
on December 18, 2008
at 12:16 PM

El Naschie and his supporters must be extremely na?ve or even stupid to think that John Baez is acting on his own behalf and interest. I cannot understand how anybody can overlook the fact that Baez is hired by Elsevier to get rid of El Naschie. It is abundantly clear that El Naschie did not only found Chaos, Solitons & Fractals but he also owns it. There are many Journals run by Elsevier and are not owned by Elsevier. Elsevier normally waits until the owner editor dies and then they take over in a cloak and dagger operation. It seems that they could not get rid easily of El Naschie and hired for this purpose John Baez to do the dirty work. It is not only a matter of the connection between john Baez and Renate Loll. It is the five million dollar or even more market value of Chaos, Solitons & Fractals. I must question however the intelligence of Elsevier?s action because they are nearly wiping out the asset they want to snatch. But then again Elsevier people are not known for great intelligence. I guess they are in for great expectations when El Naschie takes them all to court. I think at the end Chaos, Solitons & Fractals will be shut down which is the best punishment for El Naschie and Elsevier. I feel both deserve the punishment for creating all this noise needlessly.


on December 12, 2008
at 05:58 PM

Heavenly justice of the mainsteam club? You probably know Laurent Nottale an exceptionally gifted and very serious French astrophysicist. Laurent is financially almost broke because he worked out the basic principle of fractal spacetime and scale relativity against the resistance of French mainstream physics. But now believe it or not, Dr. Renate Loll of Utrecht University received a prize of 1.25 million euro for publishing the work of Nottale disguised in the form of computer simulation. This happened in academia, not in Palermo. The Dutch authorities should look into this matter. Holland is well known for its accountability. Even the Queen?s father was brought to justice because of the Lockheed affair. I do not think that Utrecht University and the German national Renate Loll should enjoy immunity.
Jan Meyer
on December 06, 2008
at 12:25 PM

on December 05, 2008
at 10:14 PM

Ferdinand Says: Your comment is awaiting moderation.
Dec 5, 2008 at 8:06 am
I made the following simple calculation which I would like to share with the readers of this site. The basis of my calculations is objective facts, not open to any dispute. I hold in my hand a letter of recommendation written by one of England?s most distinguished and celebrated scientists. The letter is dated 1977 and is basically recommending Prof. Mohamed El Naschie for an academic position. The Author of the letter writes explicitly that since obtaining his Ph.D. in 1974 Mohamed El Naschie published more than 50 papers in international journals. In other words, his average publication index per year must be 50 divided by 3. We are now in 2008 which means it is 34 years since El Naschie got his Ph.D. from University College, London, UK. Assuming that he keeps the same rate of productivity, then he should by now have published about 566 papers. It is alleged that he published 300 papers. This allegation must be inaccurate according to my simple calculation. I must therefore conclude that we owe El Naschie another 300 or so papers. If I am wrong, please correct me. It is only a theory, but it is a theory based on fact and logic rather than allegations and other things which are foreign to the scientific spirit. Awaiting your comments.


on December 05, 2008
at 01:09 PM

Ferdinand Says: Your comment is awaiting moderation.
Dec 5, 2008 at 8:06 am
I made the following simple calculation which I would like to share with the readers of this site. The basis of my calculations is objective facts, not open to any dispute. I hold in my hand a letter of recommendation written by one of England?s most distinguished and celebrated scientists. The letter is dated 1977 and is basically recommending Prof. Mohamed El Naschie for an academic position. The Author of the letter writes explicitly that since obtaining his Ph.D. in 1974 Mohamed El Naschie published more than 50 papers in international journals. In other words, his average publication index per year must be 50 divided by 3. We are now in 2008 which means it is 34 years since El Naschie got his Ph.D. from University College, London, UK. Assuming that he keeps the same rate of productivity, then he should by now have published about 566 papers. It is alleged that he published 300 papers. This allegation must be inaccurate according to my simple calculation. I must therefore conclude that we owe El Naschie another 300 or so papers. If I am wrong, please correct me. It is only a theory, but it is a theory based on fact and logic rather than allegations and other things which are foreign to the scientific spirit. Awaiting your comments.


on December 05, 2008
at 01:08 PM

This comment is addressed to The Scholarly Kitchen blog:
. Schiffer Says: Your comment is awaiting moderation.
Dec 4, 2008 at 8:53 am
You should be taking out this defamatory allegation about Prof. El Naschie. We thought this site is respectable and does not make unfounded libelous allegations. Comment no. 9 by Peter is defamatory, libelous and untrue. Even John Baez sock puppets who moderate Backreaction have admitted that these are false allegations. El Naschie has a Ph.D. (see Stephan?s comment of 30 Nov), he is a Distinguished Fellow of the University of Frankfurt and moreover, he is a Member of the Board of Trustees of the Frankfurt Institute of Advanced Studies. The whole thing was a smear campaign masterminded in an axe connecting Utrecht in Holland with Parameter Inst. of Waterloo, Canada passing by Frankfurt to pick up Silvia and with a branch to Cairo to pick up Said and Shadia. Please see comments on Backreaction before they close it down and comments on the Telegraph ( Please do not take this comment out or we will assume that the negative energy of John Baez took over your blog as well. This is a last warning before you too become caught up in the case against all the others. You removed the truth three times and yet insist upon keeping a lie. You cannot say you have not been told.

J. Schiffer

on December 04, 2008
at 01:55 PM

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on December 04, 2008
at 12:01 AM

Nice to see that the n-Category Caf? is showing its real face. You can no longer post a comment. You must contact the Master of the Lodge. The shadowy Caf? is admitting that they are a secret society where lies are cooked up and smear campaigns for money or some other remuneration are planned. One of the Masters, Dr. John Baez defended himself in his characteristically simplistic fashion on the blog of the Caf? as follows:
He said he could not be an extortionist because he blew the whistle. If he was an extortionist he would say give me that much and I will not blow the whistle on Elsevier. Oh really, why didn?t we think of that? This situation may be true for the real mafia but for a small Mafiosi, it is different. He must first demonstrate his power and then he can go into the negotiation. John Baez has shown Elsevier that he can hurt them. He masterminded the smear campaign against Chaos, Solitons & Fractals with the help of his friends. When Elsevier, a five billion dollar enterprise, pays the ransom he will turn around and defend them in one way or another and maybe even start to praise the progress made in Elsevier and Chaos, Solitons & Fractals after the departure of its present Editor in Chief. That is the method of small Mafiosi. The bad news is there will be no departure except the departure of John Baez to stand trial for what he has done. He thinks he is immune because Mr. Bush would not let an American who commits crimes abroad stand trial abroad where they commit their crimes. But the world around you has changed Mr. Baez and when you hold in your hand the warrant of Interpol, you will remember these lines that you are laughing about right now. We will teach you how to respect international law. This is a word of honor.
on December 03, 2008
at 11:32 PM

Peter, Your name is not Peter I?m sure. Your name is Said Elnashaie. You used to be in Pennsylvania State University. However you were sacked because you were convicted to two years hard labor in Egypt. People can see your homepage ( The reason for your conviction is that Dr. Shadia Alshishini, your wife stole something in the order of ten million pounds plus real estate by fraudulent means from the mother of Prof. Mohamed El Naschie. Your wife was in prison for 18 months in the Women?s Prison in Al Kanatr. Your sentence was suspended because of the good reputation and name of your family. Also you are really innocent because you suffer from paranoia and schizophrenia. Your wife caused all this. Is that enough or do you want us to give your home address and telephone numbers? Tell your wife and her backers Hamdy and Gabar to leave us in peace or we will release all the information about the corruption going on between America and certain authorities for Environment in the Middle East. Don?t play Russian roulette because you will loose.

Saif Alhak

on December 02, 2008
at 09:44 PM

Peter,you are not up to date. To their shame and loss of face they found the Ph.D. of El Naschie in University College, London, England. They also found that it was truly a smear campaign. He is a Distinguished Fellow in the University of Frankfurt. This was admitted on a blog called Backreaction. I think John Baez and Nature are now in a big mess and whether they like it or not, they will end up having to pay El Naschie a huge sum of money. Hope this is useful to you and others.

on December 02, 2008
at 09:30 PM

Reading through this comment thread I have just noticed that the sockpupets come in groups with typical names from some countries. I noticed there are two with Portuguese names, then two with spanish names, then two with Irish names. Sure enough the Egyptian and English names are more numerous. I wonder why...
on November 28, 2008
at 03:29 PM

Perhaps supporters of M. S. El Naschie, or the great man himself, could more usefully spend their energy explaining why his PhD thesis, which his website claims was granted by University College London, is not listed in the catalogy of of the University of London. Can anyone provide any definitive proof that he was in fact awarded a PhD from the University of London?

on November 27, 2008
at 10:02 PM

Perhaps supporters of M. S. El Naschie, or the great man himself, could more usefully spend their energy explaining why his PhD thesis, which his website claims was granted by University College London, is not listed in the catalogy of of the University of London. Can anyone provide any definitive proof that he was in fact awarded a PhD from the University of London?

on November 27, 2008
at 08:39 PM

By his own admission Dr or Mr John Baez is a complete failure as a scientist but has made quite a career as an internet blog thug and character assassin. He can be assured of the deepest disrespect, contempt etc. of all genuine scientists, scholars and academics. The only thing he has achieved is a natural revulsion whenever one hears his name. In our opinion, is campaign against The New Scientist
and his present campaign against Elsevier ( is nothing but ramblings for extortion of money and back handers for silence. That is what modern funding of mathematical science has produced.
S. Logan

on November 24, 2008
at 08:29 PM

The Case of John Baez, Renate Loll and John Ambjorn

Following Prof. Keyes comments, I read the site of John Baez. There is not a shred of a doubt in my mind that Renate Loll and her colleagues have enticed their publisher Dr. Baez to launch this vicious attack against Prof. Mohamed El Naschie. I cannot fathom that any respectable Professor in a respectable University such as UC Riverside could indulge in such character assassination. Has Dr. Baez introduced a new profession to science: scientific vigilantism and paid for scientific assassins. It is a black day for science and academia.

on November 24, 2008
at 05:54 PM

It is obvious to me that the inverse coupling constant calculated by El Naschie is correct while that given by Nobel laureate Steven Weinberg is wrong. Printing errors or mistakes are common among the best of us, Nobel laureates not excluded. So there is nothing unusual about that. What is unusual or rather interesting is how quickly Mohamed El Naschie and Elokaby noticed the error. The value given by Weinberg in his book The Quantum Theory of Field, Vol. 3 is 17.5. This is the inverse unification coupling in case of super symmetry. Most of the values found in the literature are around 24. Mohamed El Naschie summarized these results in Table 5 of his paper On a class of general theories for high energy particle physics, Chaos, Solitons & Fractals, 14 (2002), p. 657. Using the perturbated equation of Weinberg, El Naschie and later Elokaby found that the value is about 24 so I can conclude from that, as did El Naschie, that there was a minor arithmetical mistake. However using the exact non-perturbated equation developed by El Naschie, the exact integer value is 26. I have not explained yet how he could have noticed so quickly that 17.5 is definitely wrong. To explain that satisfactorily we need to look into the non-super symmetric case. Weinberg gives this value on p. 247 of the same book to be 41. Now this is reasonable as indicated from the values gathered from the literature in Table 6, p. 658 of the above mentioned paper of El Naschie. Again El Naschie gives the exact integer value using his exact equation as 42. Notice that the difference between 26 and 42 is exactly 16 and the difference between 26 and 16 is exactly 10. Let us go on and note that the difference between 16 and 10 is 6 and the difference between 10 and 6 is 4. 4 on the other hand is either 2 multiplied with 2 or 2 plus 2. I am sure you have already noticed it is a Fibonacci Gross law starting with 2 and 2 as seeds. The 2 could be interpreted physically as the two-dimensional world sheet of string theory. When two world sheets interact together, they span the four-dimensional spacetime and then we obtain the string hierarchy of Heterotic string theory. I will not go into that. This is all explained admirably countless times in the equally countless number of papers which El Naschie has published but alas no one reads. That is how El Naschie noticed immediately that 17.5 cannot be right. In a very recent lecture El Naschie gave a highly interesting physical meaning for the wrong value 17 found by Weinberg but it will lead to far to start discussing this again.

From all of the above I conclude that El Naschie has found a sound method, a model or a theory which ever you prefer to call it which can serve as an excellent additional tool in exploring the Planck regime and quantum gravity. It is better to discuss the contents of a paper, not the address of an Author, his affiliation and whether the post office from which he mailed his paper was near to the Editorial Office or not. We are paying a very high price for our advances in technology and methods of communication, particularly the internet. The internet has encouraged things like pedophilia and pseudo scientific blogs devoted to slander and character assassination. We have to learn to live with that and ignore and non-scientific parasitic phenomena associated with technical progress. In this sense I end my comment.

on November 24, 2008
at 05:51 PM

on November 24, 2008
at 05:37 PM

on November 24, 2008
at 05:33 PM

Dr. F. Tengelin was quicker than me or more brave than me. I was just thinking of saying the same thing. Let me make his statement more precise. Prof. Steve Weinberg who developed the electro weak theory and shared the Nobel prize with two others is the author of the most authoritative book on quantum field theory. In volume 3 of his book The Quantum Theory of Fields published by Cambridge University Press in 2000 he states on page 192 that the inverse super symmetric unification coupling of all fundamental gauge forces is 17.5. This value is given by his equation 28.2.19. Finding this result scared me quite a bit because I used Prof. El Naschie?s result which comes to 24.28. This is a large discrepancy. I repeated the calculation again and again but I always found 24.28 and never 17.5. To make things worse Prof. El Naschie noticed immediately that 17.5 must be a miscalculation and said that the exact integer value must be 26. That means 17.5 must be wrong and 24.28 is only an approximation to the exact value which is 26. He said it is obvious that 26 must be correct. He directed me to his paper in Chaos, Solitons & Fractals 35, p. 862 (2008) entitled Non-perturbative super symmetric quantum gravity coupling. I am desperate to know who is right and who is wrong? This result will not affect either the career of a Nobel laureate or the career of a well established professor but it could be devastating for me. I would be extremely grateful to anyone who could help me decide who is right, Prof. Weinberg or Prof. El Naschie. Please send me your answers as quick as possible to the address below.

Ayman Elokaby

Dept. of Physics

University of Alexandria

Egypt .


on November 24, 2008
at 05:25 PM

Readers of the Telegraph who are interested in the truth are urged go read the comments on the following two sites:

It is amazing, enlightening and shocking to read this stuff. It is unbelievable what Scientific American have published. You will see the connection between Garrett Lisi, Renate Loll, Jan Ambjorn, Nobel laureate ?tHooft and the work of El Naschie, Nottale and Ord. You suddenly comprehend what John Baez has been doing all along and when you have got the idea, please give your comments. It reads like Agatha Christie.
M. Weltspiegel

on November 24, 2008
at 01:58 PM


Author - Ancelmo Graceli Luiz.
Tel. 27- 32167566 Street Itabira, n? 5, Itapemirim Set, Rose of the
Penha, Cariacica, -269, E.S. cep.29143 Brazilian, professor,
graduation in philosophy and theoretical researcher. Published books

Collaborator - Marcio Piter Rangel.

Presented work the SECT- Spirit Brazil Saint. E the Brazilian Society
of Physics. Introduction published in the WEB for the Vestibule Brazil
Factor - Channel Profile. In day 30.01.2008. If other theories with
beddings and you formulate had had acceptance, why these will not
have? Therefore, it possesss all the beddings and all the forms of
calculations, and that the reality and the comment until today reached
are confirmed with. With more than one hundred and ten formulas, the
most varied forms of if calculating one same phenomenon, with more
than two hundred beddings in all the areas of the modern physics.
Also, with new forecasts inside of cosmology and astronomy.

Presented the Magazine of Education of the SBFISICA. Soced. Bras. de
F?sica. Brazilian Journal of Physics - SBFISICA


The theories defend the power vital the holy ghost and on cosmo, the
life, the mind and everything more, against the mecanicismo and the
materialism. With forceful beddings on possibilities of as everything
it possesss an origin and an aiming for the power the holy ghost in
route the life, the harmony, the perfection, the improvement and the
eternity in detriment to the chaos and the end.

In cosmology the universe is defended that if structure as a stream of
production and destruction of astros. In astronomy it is defended that
the movement is produced by the proper energy of astro. INTRODUCTION.


This theory is the one that more is come close to the power of God.
Therefore it goes against any form of chaos.



This theory goes of meeting to the harmony and cosmic eternity in
detriment to the chaos and the finitude of the universe considered for
the theory of the great explosion. While one enters in stream of
disintegration and reintegration with little energy, others are born
more distant from the aglutina??o of the dense space.


Graceliano Model. The universe is constant and infinite stream.

First part.


While in the theory of the great explosion the universe if expands
from a point of the space and a small amount of energy, and is the one
only - OF OUTSIDE FOR INSIDE - In the theory of the bubble universe if
it contracts from the dense space to produce the substance and the
energy of some points of the infinite of the space, in a constant
production of new universes in some points of cosmo. Or either, it
contracts itself to produce the substance stops later forming the
astros and if expanding for the maser. E is some universes in infinite
points of cosmo in infinite phases.

Of birth in the phase bubble of dense space - phase estruturante-Na
energy phase, In the phase of substance and the phase of
disintegration, unfastening and removal in the space for the proper
maser of the density of the substance. E reintegration forming
secondary from the material radiated for the elementary school.


Thus, the dense space if contracts until to be filamentoso - the
diffuse substance arrives - dense substance - energy - diffuse cores -
astros - nuclear fusing - chemical elements - of light elements in
weighed - maser - reengrupamentos in new astros, secondary - it comes
back if to disintegrate - and the process continues until if becoming
diffuse substance.


We do not feel the action of the dense space because we are in a
universe in a phase that

already it was changedded into substance.


The dense space if contracts and diminishes of size to produce the
substance, and if it gives in a contraction and infinite reduction,
that can be calculated with formulates of the infinitesimal limit. But
one it has all left, divided for all, thus infinitely.

Dense space ED - total part p dense space if structuralizing. Thus,
infinitely, until changedding into energy and substance.

ED - P/ED? until arriving to be energy and substance.

Thus, we have the formula for formation of the substance, energy and
for origin of the universe.



It was always looked by the philosophers and Greek chemistries, later
for the modern physics an explanation for the origin, nature and
essence of the substance, where the world at times was divided in form
and structure, spirit, mind and substance, therefore I show the first
theory of that the substance can appear and of that it is formed, that
here is of filaments of dense space, always looked to the substance
for the substance and dividiz it infinitely of the atom of the Greeks
until the hundred of particles that they are catalogued today. Comment
- no theory displayed until today obtained to give a recital from that
it originated the substance. All leave soon of the estimated one of


To be able of contraction of the dense space = amount of dense
space/cosmological time = estruturante substance and cosmo and phases.


To be able of disintegration = amount of substance, temperature,
fusing core to estelar, maser and energy/cosmological time.

Pd*[qm ]/t c.


Universe not formed from great explosion, but yes of space dense,
space dense is all space that in it surrounds them, that we have the
notion that it is a great emptiness, but is not, it possesss density,
and of it the substance and the energy if they had originated to form
the first astros, galaxies and accumulations.


The expansion is false, is in the truth a translation and rotation and
a minimum of removal.

What we have the notion of a great expansion of the universe is in the
truth the translation and rotation of exactly. Therefore, if it is
infinitely old and had started if to expand at the moment of supposed
a great explosion, the astros would be so distant ones of the others
that nor its light would be capable to be picked-up by any type of


The disposal of the galaxies in disks with the systems of stars also
in disk test that the universe is a estrutura??o process and passes
for streams, therefore had appeared at one alone moment in a great
explosion the format of the universe would be spherical, or either
with all the astros in one same distancia of a center, and as also
with the same translation and rotation.

Comment. Already we have here a recital of the origin and of that
material cosmo if formed. Beddings not displayed until today for other


It has yes a minimum removal proceeding from the action of the maser
and high temperatures, removal produced for the processed energy for
nuclear fusing in the inward of the astros.


The universe passes for two processes - first of the formation of the
substance and the energy for the contraction of the filaments of the
dense space.

As of the formation of the astros, its processes of energy and
production of temperature to the ratio that the substance if
agglutinates, with the agglutinated substance are produced great
amount of energy and temperature, giving sprouting the maser and the
consequent disintegration of astro in the space. For that the universe
is a stream of estruturante energy, where first if it contracts stops
later if disintegrating and if moving away ones from the others,
always in lesser portions.


The same process passes particles and atoms.


Part of the maser if also transforms into atmosphere, that always goes
to direct for the equator, where goes to form cintur?es of gases as
it is the Jupiter case, or in a more advanced period of training the
cintur?es go to form rings that is the Saturn case and Uranus, of
these rings go to form small accumulations of gases, that always more
will go to agglutinate themselves more and, where will appear the
first rarefied cores, and the aglutina??o process continues, where
the secondary ones start to appear exactly before if forming, as gases
they already possess translation and rotation and if they move away
from the elementary schools. Or either, before existing as astro the
secondary one already develops its translation.


This can be confirmed with the Land, where its atmosphere already less
concentrates more in the equator and in the polar regions, proceeding
from the magnetism of the Land and centrifuga action of the rotation,
and that the atmosphere possesss proper dynamics. That it will be
filamentar? until arriving to give beginning to a new satellite.
However this is not for today. The MAGNETISM Of the ELEMENTARY SCHOOL

If it was not the magnetism and the centrifuga action of the rotation
of the astros, its secondary ones would delay time not to form
themselves. Therefore the magnetism and action centrifugam act in the
production of the filaments of gases for the equator and in the
production of these filaments in the esferifica??o process, where
rarefied cores will appear, until forming new astros.

E the stream continues of disintegration of the elementary school for
maser proceeding from the energy production, for the production of
atmosphere and aglutina??o in filaments for the magnetism and
centrifuga action of the rotation of proper astro until arriving the
esferifica??o, also through the magnetism of the gases.


1 - with the contraction of the filaments of the dense space to form
the substance and after the produced substance if form in astros. With
the formed astros they pass if to disintegrate as form of maser and

2- the material of the disintegration comes back if to contract and to
produce astros lesser, and of these other minors the process
continues. This if confirms where the astros possess the spherical
format. Therefore the rounding sample that had a slow process of
formation through materials that had appeared of are for inside, where
slowly for aglutina??o astro was if structuralizing. They confirm
because the cores are denser and the Land is formed by layers and

In the case of the production of the planets for the Sun, the
atmosphere nor arrived if to form, and the maser was soon if
filamentando to esferificar and to appear the planets.


The esferifica??o test that astro was produced by layers of material
of maser for juxtaposition - one on the other, for that the cores are
denser, that were already proven in the physics of the atom. E the
rounding test that took much more time this circular formation, then
the universe is a much more slow and constant process that if can
imagine. Thus, the rounding of the universe proves the theory of the
stream and that all the universe of today did not appear at one alone
moment, they are some universes in some phases if processing and if
structuralizing, while some age for lose and energy processing, others
they appear for the dense space. These phases if confirm for the
current comment, thus the universe are infinite in the origin and the
end, the space and its processing.


1- Origin - universe bubble of dense space and bubble of energy. 2-
Type - estruturante fluxon?rio, if contracts to produce the substance
from the bubble of the dense space. Later if it after expands the
contraction and production of energy, temperature and maser. 3- Form
to exist - production processes energy. 4- Amount - some types in some
phases, of the bubble until astro almost without energy. 5- Size -
infinite in the production of new universes, the infinite in the space
and the time. 6- Form - infinite and varied forms, of bubbles, gases,
diffuse energy, dense and less dense substance, astros, rings, maser,
atmosphere, etc. 7- estruturante of the substance and cosmo.


Before if speaking of the creation of the universe, it must be spoken
of the creation of the energy and the substance, therefore it was from
the substance that appeared the astros.


The esferifica??o of astros the test that,

1- It was formed for a slow process to have the spherical format, of
the the opposite it would not be.

2- It was formed of minimum parts that had been if joust locating to
form astro, of the the opposite would not have the round formation.
One sees that while Saturn and Uranus possesss rings of gases in the
route of the equator, Jupiter it possesss an atmosphere stack that is
in movement in the route of the equator, where if confirms the origin
of the astros for components of the elementary school.

3- the astros are older of the one than if it thinks. E its core is
denser of the one than the exterior part, and the planet Land is
formed by formed layers on.

4- Fiz a calculation for the age of the Land, however was taken in
account only the removal, and not it time for the esferifica??o,
that probably was very bigger.

5- Test that the universe has its origin through very small elements,
that had been if joining to form the astros, as minimum parts of
maser, gases, light and leftovers of great temperatures.

6- the universe is had There if forming for minimum parts, as energy
and substance, of inside for exterior part is with the cores denser
than the crust -. A much more old, round and infinite universe in the
end and origin time, the infinite in relation its production, then,
that it would never appear at one alone moment in a great explosion.


Thus, with the format of the astros if it has plus a test of the
theory of the estruturante fluxon?rio universe. For compression of
the dense space, and disintegration for the maser and temperature, and
a new compression of this maser in the space, forming new lesser
astros, as planets, satellites and comets. E the estruturante and
desintegrante process continues producing asteroids and others that
will always be disintegrated producing astros and lesser asteroids.

Universes alone of dense space, gases, energy, diffuse substance,
substance exist and astros and gases, light and maser, with this if it
confirms the theory here supported of that the universe does not have
age, therefore it is an infinite production and disintegration of
itself exactly. E while some disintegrate others in other points of
the infinite of the space starts if to form slowly for the dense

If cosmo was produced at one alone moment, the astros would not have a
spherical form so defined, some would be long and flattened others.


The energy exists in function of the substance, since its production
until its carrier also for air, therefore the substance contains and
produze the energy, therefore the energy does not have as to exist
without the substance, and the substance if originates and is
densificado dense space.


It does not have as to speak of a universe that if it originates from
a small ball in a great explosion, therefore which the origin of this
ball, and gives where came the energy for explodiz it.

The great explosion contains varies contradictions and lack of origin
beddings, cause and effect.


The interplanetary space is constituted of gas to one [ pressure of
ten raised to less 19 terrestrial atmospheres ]. That is a route that
the space is not an emptiness without density, pressure, and is not a

PLEA. If the gravitation attracted the astros, all the satellites
would be plumb between the planet and the Sun, therefore the planet
would hold of a side and the Sun of another one, and would be
constantly in eclipse. Therefore that the dynamics depends on the
energy and maser of astro. To see theory of the energeticidade and


The filamentosa space phase of density. The energy phase space
filamentosa. The phase of the materiality - chemical atoms, and
elements. The phase of immense astros, with little density, and little
maser. The phase of the aglutina??o, where the substance was if
agglutinating, magnifying the internal temperature and the maser. The
phase of the disintegration for the internal temperature and maser.
The phase of formation of new astros for the aglutina??o of the
expelled material of the maser of the first astros, thus we see that
it is a stream and process of integration, disintegration and new


The material that already became astro after does not come back to be
dense space the disintegration, but this material if integrates
forming new lesser astros.

Thus it has two processes. 1- the process of direct formation for the
dense space. 2- and the process for the disintegration of astro
already produced, that it goes to reintegrate themselves and to form
other minors.

Thus, the dense space is an immense one all, as an immense jelly
without definite form. The universe is a process of direct form for
the dense space, and a cycle process, where some are disintegrated and
part of its material goes to construct others. With this we see that
the origin, production and time of the universe are infinite, and the
system of production of universes is much more old of that if it
imagines, in trillions of years.

E that exists some types of universes, ones of dense space, field of
energy without substance, field of energy with substance, universes of
atomic cores, gases, substance and astros if disintegrating and
integrating others.


Thus, the universe is a constant production and of cosmic evolution,
direct production and disintegration, and secondary production of
integration in new astros, while the chemical elements go if
processing and evolving.


The universe did not suffer a great explosion to produce its removal,
but yes, the removal is product of the maser, rotation and of the
great temperatures, that stimulate the astros for front, modifying its
orbit. Or either, the nuclear fusing, the production of temperature
and maser produce the lowermost removal between the astros. For that
it has a ratio enters the distancias of the planets and satellites.


If the universe had suffered to a great explosion alone the galaxies
would be if moving away, and the lesser astros as planets, comets and
satellites would not be if moving away, and the gradual removal proves
that all the astros if find in removal ones in relation to the others,
thus, all the astros if they find in removal proceeding from its
energy, maser and external temperature.



The front that the universe does not meet in expansion, but yes in
minimum removal will be seen more, and what it is detected as
appearance to the red nor it is this removal. Therefore it is
insignificant in whom he refers to to the shift in the space, and what
it gives the appearance to the red in Doppler effect is the shift of
the translation and rotation of astros and galaxies in the space.


We see then that, the universe is a constant creation for filaments of
dense space of new new substances and the cosmos for the aglutina??o
of the casting and reintegrated materials already, while other cosmos
more evolved if disintegrates for maser and high temperature, other
lesser astros if they integrate with the material of that already they
had been disintegrated and that they go to develop a next orbit to
that gave to origin and initial impulse to it, for the maser and
intense temperature. Thus one forms a direct production for the dense
space, and a production for cycle of disintegration and integration
for the disintegrated material, while the chemical elements evolve. E,
while the universe if widens for the maser produced for the proper
astros. E not for supposed a great explosion, therefore the removal is
a process continues for the action of the maser, therefore that it
decreases gradually and the initial impulse only tends to lose
intensity. While the material universe if expands, the universe of
filaments of the dense space if contracts, or either, it has two
reverse situations.

The maser is proceeding mainly from the interactions of nuclear fusing
in the inward of the astros. Or either, the same phenomenon - the
maser - that it produces the orbit and the dynamics of the planets and
satellites, also produces the widening of the universe and produces
new astros, and is the producer of the structure of them, and of new
chemical elements. One concludes thus, that cosmo is infinite in its
origin and will be in its future, as also he is infinite in the space
and the new production of the cosmos, and new chemical elements. The
process of slow creation goes against the process of instantaneous
creation considered by the great explosion. To prove the displayed
thesis above it is simple, is alone to evidence that the expansion if
finds in decreasing progression. However as already it was seen, the
universe if finds in production and removal and not in expansion.
Thus, while one is disintegrated and gone to produce others in other
cantos of the universe the dense space if it processes giving to
origin the galaxies of space gases. Thus, the universe is a process of
direct birth for the dense space, of already been born, and birth of
born others from already. Everything occurs for a direct hashing of
the substance in the origin, is a fluxon?ria hashing in the
production of new chemical elements, new astros and new orbits. Second


M = ED = and/t - substance is equal the solidiquicado dense space,
that is equal to the energy divided for the time.

The substance is made solid energy dense space, or either, the
chemical particles and elements are in the truth the dense space if
processing energeticamente and producing solidification. E in a more
advanced evolutivo period of training. Thus, the substance passes for
a evolutivo process, and the substance - made solid energy dense space
- always meets in an improvement, and passes for a slow and unified
process therefore that all the substance and the structure of the atom
are equal.


Our universe did not initiate lowermost previous to a great explosion,
but yes, infinitely great, entering in a contraction to produce the
substance, passing for made solid energy that is the substance, it
stops later structuralizing itself in particles, elements chemical,
and finally astros.

Or either, the universe did not form astros instantaneamente,
therefore that the astros and atoms possess cores.

First it is formed energy, later the substance and finally the astros,
different of that it defends the great explosion.

Thus, the universe passes of the contraction. 1- of the space for
energy and the substance. 2- of the substance for astros.

After the disintegration through the maser and intense temperatures.
It passes to the integration, where new astros are formed from the
material of the maser. Thus, the universe and a stream of production
cycles and estrutura??o and evolution, through. 1 - Contraction and
solidification. 2 - Chemical evolution. 3 - Disintegration, removal
and dynamics of the universe for the energy and maser. 4 - E
integration in new astros.

E that the orbit, the dynamics, the removal and the disintegration of
the universe are proceeding from the energy and maser, becoming the
universe of flattened structure, where the astros already are
structuralized and in gradual removal as he is ours, while others are
to circulate and in formation through gases, and others with
tent?culos as great galaxies.



The universe is an alive and dynamic system of production and
estrutura??o, where it produces its proper energy for its
functioning, estrutura??o and dynamics, being that the energy
magnifies to the ratio that goes carrying through its functioning, and
is a stream system, where the same interaction that produces the
elements chemical, produces the astros for fusing. E also produces
fields, maser, high temperatures, dynamics, orbits, structures of the
astros, and the removal in the universe. Or either, it is a producer
of itself, its structure and its functioning. Thus, it is a constant
production of integration and disintegration.


With this, it can be deduced that the universe does not possess an
origin determined in the time, much less in some place of the space,
and it does not possess an origin determined in the estrutura??o of
the substance and the astros that compose it. However, it has infinite
age, therefore the dense space always was there and producing energy,
substance, until arriving the astros.


Of contraction for the dense space. Of removal for the maser.
Of aglutina??o for the material of the maser.

The universe passes for streams while it produces the chemical
elements in the interactions of nuclear fusing in the center of the
astros, where produces energy when processing the physical
interactions and to produce its structure of astros, orbits and


If the related movement this with the maser, high
temperatures, and physical interactions in the inward of the astros
that are untied in the dense space to develop its dynamics. Soon the
movement is natural and dynamic, and varies as the situations of
energy production where if it finds astro. E if the dynamics obey a
stream, then the movement is dynamic, disforme and variable.


Dense space produces the substance, while the produced substance
already produces the astros and the chemical elements go being casting
in the secondary stars and.


The substance is filaments of the contracted dense space, that
go to structuralize the chemical universe in substance, astros,
elements, maser, high temperature, and in the dynamic auto universe.


The universe is auto dynamic and while it produces the energy
the physical interactions go being processed, and the maser acting and
spreading the substance, the astros are in dynamics for the proper
energy and maser, the chemical elements evolve and if they improve,
improving the substance and structuralizing the universe, cosmo if
contracts for the dense space, and if it widens for the action of the
maser, then the universe is alive and auto dynamic.


The time does not exist, what it exists is the timer of the
memory marked for the functioning of the brain as conscience form of
that happens between intervals of events. We can consider the
secondary time as something, that it exists in function of the
functioning of the conscience produced for the functioning of the
brain. The speed of the timer of the man is the speed of functioning
of the human brain.


Thus, the dynamics of the universe is proceeding from the constant
maser, therefore that its widening if finds in decreasing progression.
E the astros had appeared of the aglutina??o of the dense space,
while the maser and the high temperatures disintegrate the astros.
Soon in the future and this part and period of training of the
universe where in we find them the astros will be more cold and

Thus, the astros are untied and free in the space, and not imprisoned
for presumptions fields, where the rotation of the galaxies is minor
who the translation. While the substance appears of the dense space,
where the astros are produced, others is formed in other points of the
space, while the dynamics is common to all the astros and not only in
the galaxies. Test of this we have in the solar system. With this we
see that the widening is a constant production for the maser, and not
for supposed a great explosion. Therefore the same phenomenon that
produces the translation, rotation, orbits, also produces the
widening, therefore that the removal is gradual decreasing, it grows
gradually, however it has a percentage of decrease in the progression.

The universe will tend if to waste and if to dilute in lesser astros,
and with little energy, while in other parts it will initiate other
universes with the material of the dense space. The universe possesss
three basic forms of production 1 - structural, that it produces the
substance and of the form, 2-other of action who gives to life the
substance, that is the physical interactions, energy and maser in the
inward of the astros. 3 - of production of new astros and chemical


It is confirmed that the asteroids are not perfectly round,
therefore in its majority are a little flattened and prolongated. One
confirms that they are resulted of expelled tablets of material of
some planet or the Sun, being masses inteiri?a and produced of one
alone moment, while planets and satellites are astros round, where if
confirms that it had a slow formation of overlapping of components of
its elementary schools expelled for masers. This if confirms that the
spherical ones had taken more time to form themselves, and confirms
the displayed theory here.

Third part.


The universe could not appear of a ball of energy or substance to blow
up, therefore it would appear to the question, of where this ball
appeared of substance, and how much time it was there before the
explosion, and what it formed it.

We see that the production of the substance and energy is a constant
process of nuclear fusing, evolution of chemical elements and
estrutura??o of new astros and galaxies in the space and other
constant phenomena that form our slow universe. Soon, the universe is
without beginning and end, in the time, the space, the materialization
and production.

The phase of the astrophysics and cosmof?sica, that is of the
production of energy, maser and of the disintegration for maser and
the integration of material with little temperature in the space, and
where the peripheral astros had appeared.

If the universe had appeared of a great explosion the substance
already would exist before the universe, and this not and possible of
being, what we see in the truth is that the substance is part of a
slow process, as the formation of the chemical elements is slow, as it
is slow and constant the formation of the astros and the proper

One of the forceful tests of the slow formation of the universe and
its beginning of is for inside if closing on itself until becoming
materialized, and that the astros are constituted of layers with
greaters and minors densities, some layers ones on the others, and a
gradual cooling until the inward of the astros. Soon, the universe
would not appear of a point, of inside for is.


Thus, the universe for being a slow process, and of is for inside and
done of layers, evidences in the rotation and dynamics of Saturn
rings, as also in the structure of the atom, and in the structure of
the planet Land, or same in the atmosphere of the Land and Jupiter.
The substance and the universe are made of are for inside for the
dense space, and the astros also for the material of the maser.

A great explosion would not give beginning to the universe, therefore
it was itself the case already would exist before the explosion, and
what he would produce the structure and the energy to blow up.

The chemical elements also weighed are products of a slow process of


It has some universes. Of bubble of dense space, of energy of dense
space, and of the free substance in the space, and of the substance
estruturalizada in astros and the maser and high temperatures.

The fields, atoms, astros and proper cosmo as a whole are determined
by the energy and intensity of the physical interactions where they
meet as also the orbits, dynamic of the astros and atoms. Exactly the
evolution of the chemical elements and evolution of the substance and
astros and cosmo as a whole is resulted of the intensity of the
physical interactions and production of energy.

The stars shine thanks to the spontaneous nuclear fusing in its cores,
where light elements are transformed into chemical elements weighed.

We see in the universe that while stars diminish others blossom
everything this if it gives in a slow process of creation and hashing
in new elements and new astros.

With this cosmo if becomes the infinite in its origin and in the
production, we see that it has some types of older universes ones,
other new and other different ones, that it is created by a calm God,
constructing the cosmos, beings and souls for the good.


What it gives an appearance to have an immense expansion are the
translation and the rotation of the galaxies, in the truth the
translation is immensely bigger that the removal between the astros.

If the astros were if moving away straight-line for the age proposal
until from the universe, all the astros would be so distant here that
would be impossible to see nor the Sun, the more the red of Doppler
effect. One concludes that the universe is not in expansion, but yes
in translation and rotation, and a minimum removal billions of lesser
times of that any translation.

All the galaxies are if opening as a sunflower, or either, if moving
away from its center, and in translation and rotation therefore that
we have a notion of an immense expansion, however that is an
appearance of the effect of the translation and rotation of the
galaxies, therefore of the the opposite they would be infinitely
distant one of the others, being impossible to register its same
position or any form of light, even though of the Sun. A time that
possesss infinite origin and constant production.

Therefore we have notion of that all are if distanciando of the Sun,
therefore with rotation and translation effect Doppler for red is
registered with big intensity, and that it gives an appearance of that
the Sun is in the center of the universe, therefore the movement is
translacional and rotational of that of removal.

If the expansion was product of a great explosion the galaxies
infinitely distant and already would be parked in the space. Thus, for
being possible to detect the appearance of the galaxies and its
dynamics, it evidences that the universe did not originate from a
great explosion and nor the supposed expansion is product of a great
explosion, then the universe is infinitely old, and its supposed
expansion is origin and product of its maser, and is braked by the
dense space. E has left of that we detect as expansion is the
appearance of the translation and rotation of the galaxies.

With the time for the formation of the substance, with the time of the
evolution of the chemical elements, formation of the astros,
esferfica??o of the external structure of the astros, if see that
the universe is infinitely old, then if the supposed expansion is
related to supposed a great explosion would not give to detect the
existence of the galaxies in the space, therefore they would be
infinitely distant.

As also, of where the substance would appear to produce a great

The origin of the substance for the dense space, evolution of the
chemical elements, formation and esferifica??o almost that perfect
of the astros, layers of atmosphere and structure of the astros and
the existence of the galaxies it confirms the theory of the origin of
the universe for the dense space, the production of the universe for
the physical interactions and fusing. E the dynamics for the energy,
impulse for the maser and the physical interactions, as also the
cosmic brake of the dynamics of the astros for the dense space. Thus,
the universe was not produced at one alone moment in a great explosion
and also it does not meet in expansion, but yes in a minimum and
insignificant removal, billions of lesser times of that any speed of
translation and is easy to visualize.

If the planet Neptune has as many kilometers of removal of the Sun and
it it developed today until how many rollbacks around the Sun and with
that speed. This calculation serves for any astro.


Removal in km of the elementary school/number of rollbacks on the
elementary school * arc of

distancia in km of the translation = the approach value of one removal
astro since the beginning of its formation.


The ray of the Sun until the Land has 150.000.000 of km, being that I
circulate it in rollback it has 3,5 times approximately this ray, and
that the Land already gave 1.000.000 of rollbacks more than, or
either, to calculate the removal of the Land, have that

Amalt?ia satellite if evidences that it folloies with its translation
the Jupiter rotation, as a son next to the mother.

This in only comes to confirm them the displayed one until here, that
the satellites if originate from filaments of gases of the atmosphere
of the planets, and that the translation if originates together with
the origin of the proper satellite, or same can be said that they
before exactly of being one astro already meet in dynamics.

The rotation of the elementary school espirala and condenses next to
the equator the atmosphere, where of this espiralamento of gases goes
to form new astros, that these gases already meet in translacional
dynamics and variation and density in its form and structure.

The gas that forms a spiral cintur?o if processes and moves for one
alone point next to the equator, for two reasons, magnetism of astro
and centrifuga of rotation, where it goes to start to give beginning
to a sphere, that is the esferifica??o process that will become in
astro. To if forming it it will be distanciar? giving condition other
successive ones that they will come if to structuralize.

Thus, the paths are,

1-Forma??o of the atmosphere for the maser, and shift of this
atmosphere on astro for the proper action of the maser.

2-Espiralamento of the atmosphere for the rotation of astro and shift
of the atmosphere, that if dislocates next to the equator.

3-Esferifica??o of this spiral atmosphere with translation.

4-A sphere beyond the translation and removal that already possu?a,
also passes if to distanciar of the elementary school that formed it.
E the process continues, while astro if moves away and translada, also
starts to produce its rotation.

Therefore that amount of translation, removal and rotation depend on
all energy in processing of astro, that it goes to produce all maser
of astro in the space. E therefore that when aging all dynamics tends
to diminish, therefore already spent almost everything that could.


One confirms that the dynamics is proper of astro and proportional its
energy, and that the astros are free in the space, and this freedom
and maser make with that they move away themselves from its elementary
schools. Soon, if they move away themselves for maser cannot be




Tests of that the universe is processes of infinite estrutura??o.

What test that the universe if structure for a slow process is through
the esferifica??o of the astros and that the land to be formed of
core and layers, therefore test that the astros are formed of
overlapping of small materials that had been expelled by others.
Therefore if the universe was produced at one moment for a great
explosion the land alone would be formed by a inteiri?o tablet. With
the esferifica??o and layers if test that the universe is billions
of older times of the one than if it thinks today.

E if is infinitely old and considering the speed and the appearance
for the observed red, with this if it concludes that we would not see
the sun and no star in the space, therefore the time that if finds in
speed they would be infinitely distant, and would not be capable to
observe none astro in the space.

Considera??es on a theory of cosmology and astronomy.

A theory of cosmology and astronomy must be based on the general
universe, of the origin of the substance, of particles, origin of the
chemical elements and its estrutura??o, processing, and evolution,
nuclear fusing of the astros, maser, temperature, estrutura??o and
structure of the astros, the universe as a system in evolution in its
constitution macro, generality and micron.

What it is the universe. It is dense space, densificada substance,
processes and structure, streams and evolution, without beginning and

The structure of the dense space. As the gases that are light,
invisible and they float the dense space is millions of times less

False hypothesis of the great explosion. Everything before blowing up
first has that to be formed of some element, or some structure of
substance or dense space, then the hypothesis of the great explosion
is false.

On the cosmological time.

The cosmological time is the time that represents the energy and
processing in a system of astros.


Universe of lowermost processes.

What componhe and determines cosmo in its structure is its physical

production of particles and chemical elements and its evolution, in
the cores where the fusing estelares happens, or either, the universe
micron determines the macro and the generality, a system of galaxies
alone goes to confide conforms the intensity of physical processes
that are produced in the system. It will have chemical lights and
forms and streams, components, fusing in agreement the general
physical processing.

Of the multiplicity of the universe.

The universe is multiple, or either, is several in some periods of
training of origin, processing, estrutura??o, stream and
disintegration. It has origin for the density of the space that forms
the substance, later the energy and during the process he forms the
chemical elements and the astros.

Of the stream of the universe.

The universe if structure of are for inside [ for integration of the
dense space ] after inside for are [ for disintegration of the
substance ] for the processes and fusing of the substance and in the
cores of the astros. It comes back if to reintegrate forming astros
minors and with little energy, later if disintegrates in maser, and if
it reintegrates in astro, and the stream and processes it continues
until the substance if to become diffuse and with little energy.

As example if it has of the dense space and the substance, of the
substance to astro, the star that produces maser, that go to produce
planets, that goes to produce maser and atmosphere, that goes to
produce maser, rings and satellites, and the stream and estruturantes
and desistruturantes processes continue infinitely until the diffuse

Where it takes the substance to evolve and to produce the elements
chemical. Thus the universe is infinite and without definitive form.
Thus, the universe if finds in contraction and internal widening, but
not in expansion and yes in lowermost removal, if it finds in
translation and rotation, estrutura??o, streams and evolution of its
components. While some start its origin, others meet in streams and
processes, while others already meet in the final phase that is in
diffuse substance.

Nuclear Cosmof?sica. Nuclear fusing.

The nuclear fusing of the stars keeps for a good time the temperature
of the astros, with this it makes with that the universe if processes
slowly, and can keep its stream and evolution of the substance and
chemical elements and helps it transforms it light elements into
heavy, and goes to produce the energy and dynamics of the astros, for
that secondary the most distant ones possess dynamic little and the
orbits are more irregular. Or either, satellites of planets, planets
of stars.

Thus, the universe and its stream and estrutura??o if must its
production of energy, as also the evolution of the elements and the
dynamics of the astros.

The energy production goes to also determine the layers and
esferifica??o of the astros. Not expansionista and not stationary
universe. Thus one confirms that the universe if finds in lowermost
removal and not in expansion, and it does not meet parked therefore
possesss rotation, translation, streams, evolution and other

Evolutivo. One meets in evolution in its structure micron and macro,
of the elements to the astros. E if eternalizes as substance with
diffuse density. He is not arched and nor straight. Comment. The
theory of the energeticidade and maser that deals with astronomy will
be presented in another text. With more than one hundred and ten
formulas proving the two theories, therefore use diameter, maser,
temperature, rotation and equatorial speed. Distancia E not use mass
or gravitation

Por: ancelmo luiz graceli em Agosto 17, 2008
?s 11:40 am

on November 17, 2008
at 05:48 PM

Someone on this site said the other day that “El Naschie who is a student of W. Heisenberg took the idea of unit coupling of Planck masses to the Aether from another student of Heisenberg who is a professor in Nevada, USA.” These are again sloppy remarks and not very helpful. El Naschie is a follower of Heisenberg, new him slightly but was influenced by him greatly. However El Naschie was a student of Theodore Lehman and Alf Pflüger in the University of Hannover. He was instructed by T. Kaluza in mathematics but was never a student of Heisenberg. The Nevada professor is most probably Prof. Friedwardt Winterberg. He is a very interesting man indeed. He published most of his work in the Journal of Prof. David Finkelstein of Georgia Tech, USA. To state that the Planck mass gravitational coupling constant is unity is almost trivial. Prof. Winterberg stated this fact and developed a fundamental theory based on a Planck Aether hypothesis. El Naschie may have been stim ulated by it if he knew about it, but it is very far from El Naschie’s transfinite E8 theory and the golden mean scaling. What El Naschie has done however was to see that the 2-Adic expansion of 137 is 128 plus 8 plus 1. This was interpreted by him as the inverse coupling of the electroweak fine structure constant, inverse coupling of the strong coupling and quantum gravity coupling. Thus taking quantum gravity coupling to be unity is obvious, but 2-Adic expansion of 137 being unity is not obvious at once. This is the insight of El Naschie. He connected P-Adic number filed with fractals and fractals with the golden mean. At the end we have this magnificent structure called from E-8 to E-infinity for which sooner or later he will be recognized as the man who completed quantum field theory and unified strings and loop quantum gravity in a single mathematical structure, the transfinite E8 exceptional Lie symmetry group.
Ferdinand Vollrath

on March 31, 2008
at 04:45 PM

Hi, i had another vision, this one was the most incredible !! I saw the equation laid out, looked so complex. It was the theory of everything!. I was in a mind altered state at the time (nothing illegal). Really awesome. This is 1st posting, will seed some. Just wondered if anyone's interested, got advice, where should i go with this info?. Who should i talk to ? Is it any good, seems when i check google everybody's already found it. Thanks Rob, Hertfordshire. I live 45mins from Cambridge, maybe i should try there ?
Robert Beswick
on March 27, 2008
at 09:18 PM

Garrett Lisi, I did send you few emails asking about the connection between your work and that of El Naschie. I am extremely interested in your work and his and would appreciate your answer at your earliest convenience. Many of El Naschie’s papers are published in Chaos, Solitons & Fractals, a well known Elsevier Journal of quantum and nanotechnology with the highest impact factor worldwide in this field (2.5). A comprehensive paper which contains most of El Naschie’s ideas is: Average exceptional Lie and Coxeter group hierarchies with special reference to the standard model of high energy physics”, Chaos, Solitons & Fractals, vol. 37 issue 3, August 2008, pp. 662-668. David

on March 26, 2008
at 07:00 PM

Mohamed El Naschie invited article for world year of physics in 2005 contains all the main ideas for the E8 exceptional symmetry group. Elnaschie used coxeter polytop in conjunction with Fuzzy Kahler K3 manifold used in string compactification. The paper is published in an Israeli journal in Tel Aviv by Freund publishing House Ltd. The journal is: International Journal of Nonlinear Sciences & Numerical Simulations 6(2) 94-97 (2005). The title is: On a Fuzzy Kahler-like manifold which is consistent with the two-slit experiment. T. Chen
Tim Chen

on March 26, 2008
at 12:48 PM

How could anyone say, Elnaschie theory or for that matter Lisi’s theory when most of the work has been done by others! Take E-Infinity theory and you will find that Mohamed El Naschie has done little more than piecing the results of dozens of scientists together. The main idea of a Borel mix of different sets is due to the American grand master of physics J. A. Wheeler. The idea of a cantor set is of course due to George Cantor, the semitic Russian German mathematical genius and inventor of transfinite set theory. The golden mean Hausdorff dimension is a theorem of the Americans Mauldin and Williams. The golden mean number system is due to the Egyptian, N. Ahmed in Newcastle, England. The fuzzy kahler was suggested by L. Marek-Crnjac. The 26 dimensional polytop is due to Chinese Prof. Ji-Huan He. The quantum field connection was introduced by Romanian-American Goldfain. The 2-Adic expansion was discussed first by South American Carlos Castro. The Hausdorff dimension 4 plus golden mean power 3 was discovered by the Indian, Mary Selvam. The role of prime number of Poincare dedocahedron is due to the Italian, Gerardo Iovane. The holographic principle is due to Dutch Nobel Laureate Gerard ‘tHooft. The idea of scale dependence is due to French L. Nottale scale relativity. The random walk model as well as the label fractal space time is due to the remarkable English-Canadian student of Richard Feynman, Prof. Garnet Ord. The entire idea of E-Infinity for the resolution of the two slit problem is based on Feynman path integral. The idea of the platonic solids ….to Elnaschie is from his teacher W. Heisenberg. The idea of geometrizing physics is due to Minkowski and Einstein. Complex time was taken from Weyl, Wick and Hawkings. The idea of time complexity and bifurcation was taken from two of Elnaschie’s teachers, Ilya Prigogine and the outstanding English Engineering scientists, Prof. J. M. T. Thompson FRS. I could go on indefinitely but I will not. A lit tle bit humility and modesty is in order. Self centeredness, racism, nationalism and religious discrimination are the mortal enemies of science. E-Infinity is not a revolution. It is an evolution of physics to higher levels by the collective effort of the scientific community. I. M. Smith
Ian Smith

on March 26, 2008
at 12:41 PM

I think I can explain how the golden mean of phi equal to 0.6190339898 enters into Elnaschie E-infinity and transfinite E8 exceptional Lie group theory. 1. E-Infinity spacetime is made of infinitely many elementary random cantor sets. The Hausdorff dimension of these cantor sets, according to a theorem by Mauldin and Williams is equal to the golden mean. 2. The stability of the dynamics of E-infinity is determined by KAM theorem. This theorem states that the most stable orbit is the one with a golden mean winding number. 3. The E8 Gosset which is 8 dimensional is made of two concentric 600 cells polytops each is four dimensional. These polytops are generalizations of the golden mean proportioned platonic solids. 4. Golden mean geometry guarantees simplistic dynamics. That means phase space area preserving or Hamiltonian dynamics. 5. The golden mean is the solution of the simple nontrivial quadratic equation for which there is no difference between union and intersection. This is the resolution of the two slit-experiment. 6. The golden mean binary system advocated in physics by the Egyptian, N. Ahmed at Newcastle Upon Thyne is the simplest number system. All the above 6 reasons conspired in recent time to revolutionize they way we do high energy physics. J. Sarions
James Sarions

on March 26, 2008
at 08:43 AM

Many commentators and readers of this site and other physics blogs have repeatedly inquired about the real dimensionality of E8 as well as E-Infinity. Let me start by a fundamental difference between E-Infinity and all other theories of physics. In E-Infinity the dimensionality is resolution dependent. This is truly new in physics. In E-Infinity, the accuracy of observation is indispensable part of the fundamental equation. Once the energy is fixed say at that of the classical Garrett Lisi E8 then there is no problem in saying what E-Infinity sees as a dimensionality. Since E8 Gosset is made of two fundamental concentric 600 cells Coxeter polytops, the Gosset is eight dimensional. However, we have some 240 kissing points corresponding to the 240 roots. Adding the 8 dimensions to the 240 roots we obtain the dimension of the Lie algebra. Another sophisticated name for this surface dimension of the Lie algebra is the E8 manifold. Now in E-Infinity the 8 remains 8 but 248 is slightly less by a very small transfinite correction based on the golden mean harmony or in the terminology of El Naschie simplisticity. This is just the mathematical way of saying area preservation or conservation of phase space and consequently conservation of energy. Next take a bird’s eye view of the entire thing and you will see an ordinary 4 dimensional manifold if you are sufficiently far. This is the well known magic of cantor sets and fractals. The invariance of dimensionality is valid no more. It is all dependent on the accuracy with which one is probing space time. In his lecture in Abdusalam Aula in the centre of theoretical physics in Trieste, Elnaschie showed a fascinated audience how the manifold of all the exceptional Lie symmetry groups family transform by golden mean scaling to the Klein-modular curve of the particle physics ho lographic boundary of ‘tHooft and Susskind. Details of this analysis is given with beautiful colorful graphics in a recent paper in Chaos, Solitons & Fractals, vol 37(2008), pp. 662-668 which maybe found on line at S. Sebastian
Serge Sebastian

on March 26, 2008
at 08:40 AM

Someone once asked in the Wolfram if anyone could tell him what are the elements (points) of El Naschie’s E-Infinity spacetime and which are the open sets in this manifold. Well this is a mathematician’s talk. I cannot answer as a mathematical physicist. However, I can answer as a simple minded theoretical physicist. The points are the Cantor dust. But these are transfinite “fractal” points. They are measure zero but they have non zero dimension. Some sets could be fate cantor sets. This is all not important. What is important is the Hausdorff dimension of the total core of the manifold. This is exactly equal 4 plus phi to power 3. That means 4.236067977 as explained repeatedly by Elnaschie. After that you have onion like Cantorian manifold with larger and larger dimensions and less and less probability. For instance 137 of electromagnetism may be seen as a dimension and similarly, 496 of super strings. Finally one finds 336 of Klein modular curve and the 548 equal 4 multiplied by 137 of Elnaschie’s exceptional Lie groups hierarchy. There are of course open sets and closed sets. However, we have also Clopen set which is both open and closed. Thus the most important elements in Elnaschie’s E-Infinity theory are the dimensions. The inverse of the dimension is normalized probability. The main tool of the analysis in Elnaschie’s theory is scaling which is both a generalization and simplification of the local gauge principle. In some sense Weyl gauge principle is at long last vindicated by the work of the school of fractal spacetime, namely Ord, Nottale and Elnaschie. Strangely this idea goes back to the greatest of the very great Richard Feynman as shown in an old paper by Elnaschie in which a letter from R. Feynman to Garnet Ord was reproduced. If I remember correctly, the paper was published in an Elsevier Journal: Chaos, Solitons & Fractals. Fred Minsk
Fred Minsk

on March 25, 2008
at 01:02 PM

The eternal question is what is the relation between symmetry and elementary particles? Noether’s theorem states that every symmetry corresponds to a conservation law. If symmetry is broken, the conservation equation is violated. This means a little amount of energy is lost. This loss corresponds in high energy physics to a particle. In E8E8 we have as many particles as symmetries and therefore superstring theory starts with 248 + 248 = 496 symmetries. Lisi works with 248 of them and doesn’t need to invoke string theory. El Naschie on the other hand can use either the string model or the network model of Lee Smolin, Loop quantum mechanics. The crucial point in Elnaschie’s E-Infinity is the transfinite golden mean corrections. For instance, the exact theory requires that E8E8 have 496 minus a small amount equal to 0.18033989 squared which is 495.967477. Consequently, the inverse fine structure constant is nothing but this last value of alpha divided by 3 plus the golden m ean which gives us the exact theoretical value of E-Infinity namely 137.082039325. Elnaschie called that transfinite harmonization and likened it to composing a symphony where everything fit harmoniously. Seen in the light of the above, the connection to the golden mean proportioned platonic solids does not come as a surprise. The road from there back to E8 is clearly marked. The 600-cell Coxeter polytop is a 4-dimensional generalization of the platonic bodies. Taking two concentric 600-cells polytops, one finds the E8 Gosset. Finally, an action principle and a corresponding Lagrangian may be found by connecting the roots of E8 with the 240 kissing points of the same. These spheres kissing points are related to dense sphere packing in higher dimensional space. Thus our Lagrangian may be related to a maximal density principle. To see the perfect beauty and simplicity, let us recall that 8 and its inverse are 2-Adictally equal. Multiplication by 8 and 1/8 with 496 gives us the number of super Yang-Mills states and the number of elementary particles in the standard model respectively namely 3968 and 62. Both numbers are known to be correct although Elnaschie has shown that using the same mathematics at slightly higher energy the exact number of elementary particles is 69 rather than 62. In conclusion, we should mention that Lisi predicted 60+20 = 80 particles. Nevertheless, the standard model is not a single energy value but rather an energy range and in that sense El Naschie and Lisi are both correct. T. Lamont
Tom Lamont

on March 25, 2008
at 12:31 PM

The common view and I am stressing the word common is that there is no justice in this world. If there were justice in the world, the beautiful transfinite equation of high energy physics proposed by El Naschie should have been long universally accepted as the best piece of handy work in theoretical physics since decades if not more. However, I see things differently and I think there is justice in the world except it takes longer to be attained. In general there is justice and the proof is that Leonard de Vinci and Monaliza exist. But there is also injustice and the proof is that Bush and Condoliza exist. It is Escher Engel-devil duality all over again which is tiling the world as Klein-modular curve of ’tHooft-Elnaschie hologram. J. Holland.
J. Holland

on March 25, 2008
at 12:27 PM

I think in discussing Lisi and Elnaschie, the work of Maher based on the chaotic quantization of the German mathematician Christian Beck has been overlooked. Beck’s approach followed that of G. Parisi, ‘tHooft and particularly Elnaschie. However unlike the work of Elnaschie, Beck’s work is numerically and uses ad hoc potential. It is very interesting but for a mathematician lacks mathematical rigor. For more about this work, I recommend an article in Chaos, Solitons & Fractals, vol. 37, issue 1, July 2008, communicated by Prof. Dr. W. Martienssen from University of Frankfurt, Germany. G. Weibel
George Weibel

on March 24, 2008
at 08:32 PM

It is pleasing to know that there is nothing new under the sun because Elnaschie’s theory and therefore also Lisi’s theory are a trivial extension of the theory of Reflection Groups and Coxeter Groups. Elnaschie’s famous formula leading to the inverse golden mean to the power of 3 and therefore a dimension of 4.236067977 is nothing but a special case of the Poincare polynomial for t equal the golden mean. Elnaschie himself acknowledged that in a recent short note published in Elsevier science direct, Chaos, Solitons & Fractals (2008), doi:10.1616/j. Chaos.2008.02.001. The paper is titled: Mathematical Foundation of E-Infinity via Coexter and reflection groups. People should read more and write less. D. Cohen
D. Cohen

on March 23, 2008
at 10:11 PM

I don’t think it is for being a Moslem that the work of the great thinker Mohamed El Naschie has been suppressed. The problem is deeper. It is plain jealousy. This is one of humanities biggest mortal sin committed by all. El Naschie’s wealth and dashing good lucks have not endeared him to the bookworms. And to add insult to injury he is an Engineer. In Egypt, that makes him la crème de la crème. Add to that his wit and youthful demeanor at almost 70 years old and you could hear members of the so-called mainstream eating their hearts out. Those who love him however are the overwhelming majority. They are not only women but very highly respectable scientists; some of them are Nobel Laureates like Ahmed Zewail, Ilya Prigogine and A. Legget who seem to think very highly of him as transpired in various discussions in which I was present. G. Bretta
Gilda Bretta

on March 23, 2008
at 09:51 PM

If you want to have a bird’s eye view of the work of El Naschie and Lisi, you just need to log into the site of SLAC in Stanford USA. The site is called SPIRES-HEP. Last time I checked it out, I found 106 papers listed for El Naschie on high energy physics and particularly quarks confinement. Rather surprising information and not known to me before were also found. The site could be found when googling with words like: El Naschie and Lisi or with El Naschie and the Nobel Prize in physics M. Momadi
Mansur Momadi

on March 23, 2008
at 09:41 PM

Dr. El Naschie is apparently a prominent Aeronautical Engineer at least originally. I found one of his papers on a site for the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics (AIAA). However, I did find that he is also at Surrey University and a CV is given on the site of ZoomInfor “Business people information”. There it is mentioned that 200 postgraduate students and college staff members attended his lectures and that he has been recently nominated for the Nobel Prize in physics. A. Ameer
Ahmed Ameer

on March 23, 2008
at 07:25 PM

Science Discoveries Net, called it “El Naschie revolution in high energy physics” and a revolution it is. Almost single-handedly, with a little help from his friend Garrett Lisi, the two free spirited men turned the tables on the establishment. The sheer quantity of original ideas and concepts flowing almost constantly from his Egyptian brain is awesome: Cantor sets, P-Adic numbers, Exceptional Lie groups, Transfinite harmonization, Fuzzy Klein modular curves, Holographic principle, Descriptive set theory, Feigenbaum turbulence, Transfinite graph theory, KAM theorem, Complexity theory and T-like dualities are just a few of his mathematical tools kit. Mohamed was also sufficiently smart and realistic not to confront the establishment of high energy physics head on. He initially deflected his path and published mainly in two or three of the main nonlinear dynamics journals. Chaos, Solitons & Fractals was obviously his most preferred venue and is by now the most famous Elsevier Journal with an impact factor of 2.5 which is unheard of for a mathematical journal. Nonetheless, his work caused a stir and forced him to leave Cambridge after the death of his friend Prof. David Crighton FRS, the Head of DAMPT and subsequent departure of his teacher and mentor who brought him to Cambridge in the first place, Sir Herman Bondi who together with Gold and Hoile were the pioneers of the cosmological steady state theory. In a very short introduction to the Lisi-Elnaschie dialogue, JAKARTASS gave an objective view of the controversy. However, the best reading of the E8 theory I found is in a paper published in Chaos, Solitons & Fractals, vol. 37 (2008) 662-668 titled: “Average exceptional lie and Coxeter group hierarchies with special reference to the standard model of high energy particle physics”, available online at: In particular the golden mean transformation of E8 to Klein modular curve given in fig. 3 of this paper is a genuine revolu tionary insight into high energy and quantum gravity physics which is destined to make history. A final tip: when Googling for Mohamed El Naschie, write only El Naschie. He spells his name in different ways, so you have to try several times. His real Arabic surname is Alnashaee. A.Donnelly
Alexander Donnelly

on March 23, 2008
at 07:22 PM

As I see it the work of Elnaschie is much deeper than just the E8 symmetry of Lisi. Elnaschie asks a deep question similar to that of Albert Einstein and those who are similarly disenchanted by quantum mechanics, namely is quantum mechanics a complete theory? Elnaschie answered this old question in a novel way by saying that both quantum mechanics and Newtonian mechanics are unified in a deeper theory: that of nonlinear dynamics and chaos. Since cantor sets and fractals constitute the geometry of chaos Elnaschie used it to model spacetime. From there everything else follows. Those who do not understand the basic principles of nonlinear dynamics such as the three body problem, non-integrability, Poincaré resonance, period doubling and Poincaré recurrence could not possibly understand Elnaschie’s work.
Mark O Connor

on March 20, 2008
at 12:22 AM

I was mildly horrified by the startling comments of Nobel laureate Prof Brian Josephson posted to this cite on November 15th, 2007. Brian, who is a Cambridge, England professor and is well known to me stated in no ambiguous terms that the string theoretists who run the physics preprint archive have the nasty habit of blocking submissions of papers advocating alternative approaches like that of Garrett Lisi and his colleagues dealing with E8 and E-infinity. I heard this before many times from a host of rather serious scientists. However coming from a Nobel laureate and a Cambridge professor, this is altogether something else. If true, it is scandalous. In fact it borders on criminality and it warrants a criminal investigation for misuse of authority. In this context I am reminded of the witch hunt conducted against an ex-Cambridge theoretical physicist which continues until this day. The disgraceful episodes started after the departure of a powerful Head of Department who protected the said professor. The main crime of the professor was that he advocated a non-continuous spacetime made of uncountably many discrete points which effectively solved most contradictions in super strings. If all this is true, and of course I cannot say for sure that it is one hundred percent true, then I regret that I opted to become a scientist thinking that this community has a different set of values based on ethics, truthfulness and fairness. J. Hutchinson
J. Hutchinson

on March 10, 2008
at 11:22 PM

An important but not that well-known hard core mathematical result in p-Adic quantum mechanics is the following: A p-Adic number field is a homomorphism of a Cantor set. In a paper entitled “A few hints and some theorems about Witten’s M theory and T-duality” published in 2005 in an Elsevier Journal for nonlinear dynamics and chaos (vol. 25, pp. 545-548), M. Elnaschie developed a theory based on the above which amounts to a quantum gravity unification. The core idea is like usual very simple. In p-Adic theory a large number maybe very small and vice versa. For instance 137 could be shown to be equal to unity in the p-Adic Cantor sense. Said differently, the very large can meet the very small. In the words of Elnaschie, it is: “Similar to Friedrich Kekule’s vision of a serpent which caught its own tail” Therefore one surmises that the topology of a cantor-set like spacetime is behind many Witten-like dualities of the T-type. It may well be that extreme order and extreme disorder are related in a similar way. This is probably the rationale behind Elnaschie proposal to derive the pattern of the E8 Gossett from the principle of maximum entropy. The physical idea is clearly related to that of maximum sphere backing density or sphere kissing numbers where the kissing number is equal to the number of roots. It is thus tempting to see Elnaschie dense sphere packing as a substitute for a Lagrangian and an action principle. J. Claude
Jean Claude

on March 10, 2008
at 04:23 PM

Mohamed was evidently a student of Heisenberg and seems to have used some of the work of another student of Heisenberg without giving him due credit. The professor in question is in Nevada, USA. He introduced the Planck Aether theory and found the Planck particles-coupling to be unity. This is a crucial result which Elnaschie used to derive Newton’s dimensionless constant as well as proving quark confinement. J. Meyers
Josh Meyers

on March 10, 2008
at 10:11 AM

It is not important how many papers you publish or even how much you know. Important is only how important and original these papers are. El Naschie has written in the last 2 years about 2 papers every week. True there are a few excellent papers coming from him recently. But many of his earlier papers are completely incomprehensible to me. F. Gustavo
Federico Gustavo

on March 10, 2008
at 10:09 AM

Mohamed Elnaschie has been writing one original research paper every week for the last three years. I made this calculation myself. That makes him either a Poincaré-like genius or a mad man. Maybe he is both. J. Carlos
Juan Carlos

on March 09, 2008
at 09:46 PM

Lisi’s work as well as that of Elnaschie’s has an indirect experimental confirmation when put in the context of the WMAP results. The point is that the WMAP dissonances is explained by the twisted Poincaré dodecahedron while E8 is related to the generalization of the platonic dodecahedron to Coexter 600-cell polytop and therefore to the E8 Gossett. Nature is ingeniously simple. This is the main message of the E8 proposal. T. Johns
Trevor Johns

on March 09, 2008
at 08:23 PM

On the whole Duncan Kilham’s comments posted 1st March are reasonable and meaningful. He errs and should stand corrected regarding priorities. Mohamed El Naschie was a full professor of engineering and working on stability and bifurcation before Lisi was born and his work on E8 exceptional lie groups is at least one decade before Lisi’s paper. El Naschie is an Egyptian, not a Saudi. Some will say it is the same, namely Arab. With no disrespect intended, it is not entirely the same. It is rather like Austrians and Germans - both speak German but they are not the same. If they were then English would be American. Again, no disrespect is meant.
M. Byrnes

on March 06, 2008
at 02:50 PM

I do feel that Archimedes' way of announcing his major discovery, was more elegant than that attributed to Dr. Lisi
John Bailey
on March 02, 2008
at 02:57 PM

Lisi’s E8 theory seems to have been hijacked by a Saudi physicist Mohamed El Naschie working at King Abullah Al Saud Institute for Nano & Advanced Technology. Using Lisi’s theory he proved with full mathematical rigor the enigmatic phenomena of quarks confinement. The idea is disarmingly simple. El Naschie gives the following self evident analogy. Searing for free quarks is like searching for water at 200 degrees above or below zero. In both cases we cannot find any water. All that we find is either hot vapor or cold ice. Similarly when we smash protons we simply produce blank particles instead. We cannot see these blank particles because they constitute many black holes. The extra energy needed is simply delivered by the proton smashers themselves. Unbelievably simple, isn’t it? The mathematics is even simpler. Unfortunately El Naschie does not mention Lisi’s theory nor give him credit. Too bad. However if this is what Lisi’s theory has helped t o resolve, then he clearly deserves the Nobel prize in theoretical physics for completing the work of David Gross.
Duncan Kilham

on March 01, 2008
at 12:49 AM

dear boys let me share as a little old lady just completing a ph.d titled 'Midwife to Gaia - birthing Global Consciousness" that the concepts you are all exploring scientifically are fantastic and much much simpler. LOVE IS THE UNIFIED FORCE FIELD we are all connected by a universal source of electromagnetic energy and unseen force and as we raise our vibration from fear to love everything is perfect and all is one. ref:Dr Bruce Lipton Dr Joseph Chilton Pearce Maturana and Varella Peter Russell Rupert Sheldrake Dr Gillian Ross Dr Candace Pert Dr Julian Jaynes these are only a few now singing the same song my own formula for co-creation is I + O + A + CC which in turn is inspiration plus options plus action = co creation which is balance of left brain and right brain balance of yin and yang and intention with integrity and the rest is HERSTORY! if you choose to comment WE ARE ONE NOW - WON - ONE FREEDOM, FUN AND FRIENDSHIP the wave of change is sweeping the planet nothing can stop it we have reached critical mass YES [what the... -Ed]
estelle Myers
on February 29, 2008
at 04:42 AM

I agree with the serious comments made by Prof. Wett (Feb 19) and Prof. Gonsalves (Feb 17) as well as Pavlovich (Feb 14). Lissi’s paper, as well as the contributions to E8, rounds up the picture. No one needs to think that quantum mechanics and the standard model will be completely replaced by something else. Nothing is further from the truth. E8 starts high, high up in the lofty tower of an all embracing theory then as we go down we find everything else. As an old physicist I remember times in Russia as well as in the USA when it was a sin to write Lagrangian. If you do not believe me ask some of the founding fathers of quantum field theory such as Gerrard ‘t Hooft. Now things have changed to exactly the opposite – it seems to be a sin not to start from a Lagrangian even when we are at ultra high energy where the words time and motion as well as measurement completely lose their original meanings. I advise serious readers to read without prejudice the dialogue and correspondence between El Naschie and Dan Winters ( . You see you could think of the E8 gosset as two concentric 600-cell Coxeter polytopes. Since the polytopes are generalizations of the platonic bodies with golden mean proportions, golden mean transfiniteness is involved. There is no magic nor isoterical contemplation in all of that. It is nature and geometry and this is isoteric enough. We do not need any mysticism . It is all serious mathematics. I wish people would read new ideas free of prejudice. Only in this way can we understand how Lissi’s theory is really conventional as conventional can be. It solves the parts of the quest which lower energy theory cannot solve. That is actually all. All that is left is to thank Lee Smolin and the Telegraph for pointing out and making available to a wider public the work of Lissi, El Naschie and their school.
Alin Georvichev

on February 28, 2008
at 06:19 PM

this person needs to read other articles for example if he really needs the new TEO he shoud go to and hope it will be helpfull
on February 27, 2008
at 07:37 AM

Hang on! I drew exactly the same thing with my spirograph about 40 years ago.
on February 26, 2008
at 09:43 AM

Yes It is about time that innovative idealist free thinkers who have no money and nowhere to sleep are coming up with ideas, because this world that we are living in, is destitute and is completely advertisement driven and lacks any sort of truth,I was bought up with ethics that my parents have now lost due to too much daily mail reading,cash is king and if you are not in,or dont pay the game the you cannot win!!!!The problem with the world is truth is only driven by the people of whom have a vested interest.Read people read.
on February 24, 2008
at 03:38 AM

updated dialog with El Naschie and Dan Winter.. response to query: Is fractality the cause of gravity?
dan winter
[OMG remember this guy? --Ed]
on February 23, 2008
at 08:50 PM

"Being poor sucks," Lisi says. "It's hard to figure out the secrets of the universe when you're trying to figure out where you and your girlfriend are going to sleep next month." If this guy is so damn clever, why can't he get a job like the rest of us? Bloody layabouts.
Rob Neal
on February 23, 2008
at 05:32 AM

The comments by Charles Gonsalves are sober and concise. But three lines cannot do justice to Lisi’s paper and they could be misinterpreted. For instance, to say we must await correlation to accept it, physicists could miss the point and give the impression that Lisi’s paper is contradicting accepted physics. It is nothing of the sort. Lisi’s, similar to El Naschie’s, and other attempts go beyond the standard model and do not contradict it. In fact they confirm it. I tend to agree with Pavlovich and I should stress that Lisi’s and similar works by relegating the Lagrangian and time evolution to the backseat, when talking about ultra high energy, are utilizing an obvious backdoor to solve the dilemma. At ultra high energy, and as we learned from Hawking and others, time is spatialized. It is frozen in space as is the case with the so-called Cantorian spacetime or E-Infinity. This is taking Einstein’s ideas to the ultimate. We do not fix a point by three spa ce coordinates and a time parameter but by four space time coordinates. The E8 proposal is taking this idea to its ultimate destination. Everything becomes relational - as proposed long ago by David Finkelstein. People should not be worried about Schrödinger’s equation or matrix quantum mechanic. They all remain valid exactly as the path integral and other methods. However all these methodologies cannot tell us how many particles we have in the standard model. Experimentally we know we have 60 when counting particles in the fashion of Martinus Veltman. Lisi predicts twenty more particles still to be found within the energy scale of standard model or moderately above it. El Naschie on the other hand predicts only 9 more, one graviton and eight dimensional Higgs field, adding up to 69 elementary particles. The E8 proposal shows how from the frozen 496 dimensions of string theory exceptional symmetry group we can come down to only 69 particles which we could observe in principle if our experimental facilities are enhanced in an appropriate manner. Only here we could wait for experimental verification. In this sense Lisi’s proposal is a hit and the E8 methodology is ingeniously simple. Seen that way, E8 is indeed the fabric of the micro-cosmos.
Serjey Wett

on February 19, 2008
at 09:37 AM

i have had a look at Dr. Lisis' Paper E8/TOE. Have checked against other peoples work (Similar Claims) While Dr. Lisi is a bright guy, I do not consider his claim to be a hit.We await any correlation to accepted physics and "successful" predictions for the LHC
Charles P Gonsalves
on February 17, 2008
at 11:42 PM

Before Lisi’s story, I would not have touched the Telegraph even with my gloves on. But now I recognize it as a respectable internet newspaper for the educated and scientifically interested. It is doing a better job than some classrooms in respectable universities as far as broad scientific education is concerned. We have to stop self-replication. Most of the professors think of themselves as cloning machines to produce students who are mostly bad replicas of themselves. We should be grateful for the Telegraph for drawing our attention to someone like Lisi whom I never heard of before and very unlikely would have heard about him at all. Instead of being indignant at Lee Smolin, we should thank him for his open-mindedness. Instead of being outraged by a revolutionary theory coming from a Moslem scientist like Mohamed Elnaschie, we should wish that more Moslems like him set an example for the rest. Finally, I wish that the establishment in the West take notice of the tremendous deve lopment and contribution done by the Soviet and Russian schools. This is particularly directed to Lisi, El Naschie and others. In particular, the Russian P-adic quantum mechanic has been almost completely ignored. Maybe the Telegraph can change that. A. Pavlovich
Alexi Pavlovich

on February 14, 2008
at 10:48 AM

Dear gods, some people are dumb. December 2012 will not be the end of the world, no matter what the frigging Maya had to say. They weren't so clever that they predicted and avoided their own demise, were they? Morons. Anyway, well played that surfer dude. Another layer possibly uncovered. Hope the LHC confirms it. Maybe one day we will know if the Universe is fundamentally analogue or digital. But probably not, seeing as nothing else is - not even numbers. (There are only 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary and those who don't.)
Mark McAndrew
on February 14, 2008
at 07:05 AM

Existents; From infinite emptiness to infinite solid, from infinite past to infinite future, from infinite small to infinite large, from infinite still to infinite energetic, from infinite angles, and infinite positions within and throughout, all a paradox of instantaneous beginning not having measure to it's beginning, and no measure to an end... and we as travelers, observers of the present, without depth to that mode, traveling toward the future, only to rediscover our previous steps via the traces we leave behind, and yet to discover our steps ahead, and in between all that is stated above, as a halfway point to all of it's dimensions. And our bubble of time of which we are our own centers, expands from us at the half way mark of existence, the speed of light, and so as we move about, our personal universes moves with us, and what we move from moves opposed in proportion to mass differences, and thus it has it's universe moved too. But being that time is measured at the half point of all infinite opposites, a time delay is imposed between such motions and opposing motions, causing a time variances as we execute motion. The simple act of walking makes us unwitting time travelers from our present, and the present is itself a traveler in time. And so God created coffee! (c) Feb 13, 2008 William Frank Davis
William Davis
on February 14, 2008
at 05:52 AM

Mostly interesting comments posted here which amount to contributions towards a "Hypothesis of Everything." Ultimately a theory has to relate to something else to be provable. The poem below is my contribution towards a "Theory of Nothing," and proves that even nothing must relate to something; ipso facto "nothing exists!" Nothing My greatest wealth was nothing. It grew from year to year. I found I could not share it. I was beyond dull care. I saw it, heard it, spoke it, and wore it into bed. To need it, seek it, eat it; were thoughts that raced ahead. Then suddenly a princess with wealth in "something" came. You smiled and I fell smitten. My life was not the same. My most respected treasure. Your wealth is now my glove. We fit so well together. A hand inside a glove. Where passion quickly quarrels true lovers make amends. Let's merge our "wealths" together and gradually our ends! © 1994 Ronald Francis Naylor
Ron Naylor
on February 12, 2008
at 12:33 AM

Hello. If anyone is friends with this surfer philosopher, I would appreciate his email, and Lisi, if your reading this. email me @ I am a writing/international relations student in Santa Cruz, Ca, I don't understand the math yet, but I've been developing a startingly simple, yet (as far as I know) unheard of theory that came to me one day, and I'm working on it and it fits! and I know it also fits into E8 although I can't prove it yet, because I'm not a math genius. I've been working on this theory for 21 years and probably longer but I've only became aware of it in the last few years. contact me Lisi, no one thinks a 21 year old creative writing major could continue Albert's work either. I need someone to hear the theory, and tell me what they think. But I wont tell just anyone yet. If you are interested you should come to the Scruz and catch some of ours.
on February 09, 2008
at 07:22 PM

Why shouldn’t Lisi spend summer surfing and winter skiing. He doesn’t have money but he is a free man. My dear Ray Lisi is rich because he is free. His freedom has made him a remarkable physicist. Only those free from meaningless materialistic obligations like Lisi and El Naschie can produce new ideas. D. Salazar
David Salazar

on February 05, 2008
at 06:12 PM

what if your super atom splitter finds there really are sub atomic black holes. could they start to absorb energy on our planet. sorta like the blob the more it eats the bigger it gets. if you blast away whatever keeps them whithin there own universe.
on February 04, 2008
at 09:15 PM

Not to belittle the man or his work, but I would hardly describe someone who can afford to spend the summer surfing in Hawaii and the winter snowboarding in Nevada as "impoverished."
on February 03, 2008
at 06:23 PM

There are two books published recently in China supporting the line of research of Dr.Lisi. Both books are edited by a well-known Chinese Professor of Mathematics & Nanotechnology, Prof. Ji-Huan He and both are produced by China Culture and Science Publishing. The first is titled: “Beyond the 2006 Physics Nobel Prize for COBE – an introduction to E-Infinity spacetime theory” ISBN 988 – 97681 – 9 – 4/0.4 (2006) The second is titled: “Transfinite Physics” ISBN 988 – 98846 – 5 – 8 (2005). Both books have a large number of reprinted papers by a Cambridge Professor, M. S. El Naschie an inventor of a new theory of spacetime based on Cantor sets and the golden mean.
G.D. Wu

on January 31, 2008
at 04:41 PM

Garrett Lisi’s work is a breakthrough. Critical remarks are unfounded and jealous. The mathematical details of Lisi’s work were published few years ago in China. The book is edited by Chinese Professor Ji-Huan He. It is called “Transfinite physics” published by China Culture and Scientific Publishing ISBN 988 – 88846 – 5 – 8 in 2005. The book consists of some 649 pages and cover al aspects of high energy physics and new theory called Cantorian E-Infinity spacetime.
Lie Song
on January 31, 2008
at 08:35 AM

I completely agree with Stu B, i am also a surfer who enjoys science, history, and other intellectual endeavors, just because i have long hair, occasionally do drugs, and have odd theories about the surrounding universe doesn't make me a "surfer dude" first and a "scientist" second!
mike S
on January 29, 2008
at 05:23 AM

Being a surfer myself, I am offended by the use of surfer dude. Who by his own doing is an established member of society. The wording of the title is TERRIBLY MISLEADING...he is a physicist who happens to surf in his spare time. He knows how to have fun, looks like he plays hard and works harder! Would you say football boy stuns scientists with theory, if a bloke who played football on the weekend discovered something??
Stu B
on January 28, 2008
at 03:06 PM

Beyond what we believe scientifically and religion-wise to be the main forces operating within 'our' Universe, I feel there are likely to be an infinite number of them, not to mention universes. To simplify matters, I like to think that 'the main force' that governs us and all things / events would best be referred to as Fate, and that it likes to play tricks and provide lessons in the form of irony (nothing new about any of this, really). Just previous to reading re. the 'Dude,' an interesting example of the workings of this force I saw in an article on the Seattle Mariners American major league baseball team. More specifically, a comment about the diminutive import (all of 5 ft. 9 in. and weighing in at about 165 lbs.) from Japan named Ichiro, to whom the writer referred as a 'monument to statistical invariance' who performs with 'mind-boggling consistency' -- a remarkable athlete who in 7 seasons with Seattle scored exactly 111 runs in 4 of them and 110 in another, and walked exa ctly 49 times in 3 and 48 in another. Did he decide to stop precisely at these points? In any event, they are rather delicious numbers, among many others of his records in the majors. Ichiro also may be remembered as the batter who in 2004 set the new major league all-time record of 262 hits in a single season, breaking the old mark of 257 set by George Sisler of the St. Louis Browns in 1920. Sisler's effort was no mean feat, considering the record was to last 84 years before being broken by the Ichiro. Also, after 84 years Uranus returned to its 1920 position in our heavens. Astrologically, such Uranus transits are known to coincide with great changes and reversals, and simultaneously in this instance, the passage of Pluto (no longer a planet, but still continues to be regarded as the Fate significator) thru Sagittarius corresponded with great upheavals, (both positive and negative) in the sports world, that often took on a global nuance. Not exactly theoretical physics, but earth happenings given a cosmological cast no less.
Arnold Miyagawa
on January 28, 2008
at 08:57 AM

It looks to me as Dmitri Mendeleev's periodic Table. Now little over 20 particles are missing. If the Huge New Accelerator is able to find their traces then indirect proof of this new theory will provide it's survival, or otherwise it's demise. It's a brave, beautiful, anti-intuitive and new path. Watch out for it.
Manuel Martins
on January 27, 2008
at 07:19 PM

The empire of the mainstream (where mediocrity reigns) is striking back. Lisi is “No Einstein” is the new headline. But this is what was said about Einstein himself. Until this moment there are people who claim that special relativity and general relativity are wrong. There are of course problems with Lisi’s proposal. He didn’t cure quantum mechanics. Probability with a phase for instance is a strange concept. But this is what ‘tHooft and various other scientists attempted to solve. Fuzzy logic, fuzzy geometry and fuzzy topology based on fuzzy set theory could replace quantum mechanics. El Naschie in the University of Frankfurt, Germany proposed such fuzzy geometry for spacetime which is called fuzzy kähler manifold. His paper was chosen as the most highly cited paper by Thomson ISI Essential Science Indicators. ( Link ) I think Lisi should go on with his research and forget what people say. He should remember what Richard Feynman said: “What do you care about what other people say”. Fuzzy E8 and E-Infinity are new ideas entering physics and this will make some people less than happy. ( Link ) New ideas are urgently needed. This was the message at the turn of the century which was sent by one of the greatest theoretical physicists of all time, Nobel Laureate Steven Weinberg, in an article published in Scientific America. New ideas will never evolve from the traditional establishment, with a very few exceptional minds such as ‘tHooft and similarly inclined people. Ed Flores
Ed Flores

on January 22, 2008
at 04:54 PM

I think I can prove that El Naschie’s discovery of E8 unification preceded that of Lissi by several years at least and go beyond it. First El Naschie unlike Lissi understood the role of transfinite harmony via the golden mean. Second El Naschie worked with the bulk represented by E8E8 manifold and the holographic boundary represented by Klein’s modular curve or SL(2,7) simple linear Lie symmetry group. Subsequently he showed that the dimension of E8E8 multiplied with the instanton number of the Kähler manifold corresponding to the holographic boundary is equal to the dimension of the holographic boundary multiplied with the instanton number of E8E8 manifold. In other words, every physical field of fundamental interaction is a topological deformation of any other. That means all is derivable of all. This is far ahead of Lissi. El Naschie found long ago that the masses of all elementary and composite particles such as Mesons are obtained from the ratios of the vario us topological invariants of the involved Lie groups and golden mean scaling after introducing the fundamental concept of average symmetry. Finally I should mention that El Naschie extended his work to things which are in essence generalizations of the exceptional Lie groups namely 2 Stein and 3 Stein spaces. All these papers are on the net and Elsevier Science Direct but just in case, and as a service to our community, I will give some details: 1. Holographic dimensional reduction. Chaos, Solitons & Fractals (CS&F), 29 p. 816-822 2006. 2. Superstrings, entropy and elementary particle content of the standard model. CS&F, 29, p. 48-54 2006. 3. Average symmetry, stability and ergodicity of multidimensional Cantor sets. Il Nuovo Cimento, Vol. 109 B, N.2. Feb. 1994. 4. One and two Stein space hierarchies in high energy physics. CS&F doi:10.1016/j.chaos.2007.09.051. 5. A review of E-infinity theory. CS&F 19, p. 209-236 2004. 6. On a class of fuzzy Kähler-like manifolds. CS&F, 26, p. 257-261 2005.
Tareq Khan

on January 22, 2008
at 09:42 AM

Since the New Scientist magazine is refusing to publish any comments connected to Prof. Mohamed El Naschie and his work on the exceptional E8 symmetry groups, I ask you all if they would not have published a long article if his first name would not be Mohamed and his passport would not be Egyptian and his main concern peace in the Middle East? Try to be honest with yourself and answer this question and then you will hopefully write to the New Scientist that they should be ashamed of themselves for not at least publishing another point of view. The opinion of the majority of the world’s population, the opinion of what they call the third world. A Nobel prize for a Mohamed – that would be the day!
Islam Abdullah

on January 21, 2008
at 10:30 PM

Although both men are non-mainstream, more or less totally independent scholars, there is a difference between G. Lissi and M. El Naschie which I wonder if other readers may have noticed. Lissi is essentially a mathematical physicist in the first instance. El Naschie on the other hand is in the first place an engineering scientist which is noticeable from his approach to physics. I found that very clear from the following. El Naschie in his paper ‘On 336 Kissing spheres in 10 dimensions, 528 P-Brane states in 11 dimensions and the 60 elementary particles of the standard model’, published in Chaos, Solitons & Fractals, 24, pp. 447-457 uses the tangible and easily visualized concept of sphere Kissing to model massless particle states or massless gauge Bosons. The classical problem of sphere Kissing was solved for 3D by Newton and the answer is 12. El Naschie connected that to the 12 Bosons of the standard model and then went higher and higher with his dimensions. For E8 the Kissing number is 240. This is 8 less than the dimension of E8, namely 248. Now Lissi uses the same number 240. However Lissi thinks of it as the Roots number. Well, Root numbers and Kissing numbers are identical for the classical exceptional Lie symmetry groups. But Roots are vectors and thus more mathematical which appealed to Lissi more than Kissing numbers which Lissi never mentioned in his work. None the less, Kissing numbers may be more useful because in ten dimensions we have 336 of them which is exactly equal to the number of independent components of Riemann tensors in 8 dimensions while we know that E8 is the largest exceptional group and it is not easy to argue for say E9 although Nicolai in Einstein’s Max Plank Institute and El Naschie made a complex proposal for an E10 and E11 groups. A similar observation regards numbers. El Naschie as a practically minded engineer deals masterly with numbers. By contrast Lissi loves Fiber Bundels concepts and numbers are secondary to him. However at the end, it is only 248 and 240 of E8 that work and the proof of the pudding is in the eating. I hope these comments will stimulate more constructive discussion of the subject rather than talking about things which are neither here nor there.
Fareed Galal

on January 21, 2008
at 02:19 PM

Hold it! – Before singing the Lissi and El Naschie songs of praise you should remember that they stood on the shoulders of giants. El Naschie himself admits being deeply indebted to W. Heisenberg, J. Wheeler, D. Finkelstein, J. Shwarz, M. Green. R. Penrose and G. ‘t Hooft. These are well known giants but there are also little and totally unknown giants. For instance one should never forget that an American lawyer who is a hobby group theoretist living in Atlanta worked on a very similar subject to that of Lissi. This lawyer’s name is Tony Smith and even the great D. Finkelstein refers to him in his classical book on quantum relativity published by Springer. Also I would like to see Lissi distancing himself from attacking super string theory and siding with loop quantum mechanics. For my money, Lie Smolin is one of the cleverest theoretical physicists of all time. He is well connected with the media, as well as with great scientists but he is quite over the top whe n it comes to the beautiful super string theory. I find El Naschie’s attitude towards super string theory healthier. He criticizes it but he likes it and uses it although his approach is nearer to loop quantum mechanics. It is true he works with infinite dimensional spacetime but the expectation value is D = 4. Also his E-infinity is a generalization of the symmetry of the platonic bodies with golden mean proportionalities. The edges and vertices resemble in this case a network. I recall in this connection El Naschie’s paper ‘Fuzzy Dodecahedron and quantum physics’ published in Chaos, Solitons & Fractals, 30, pp. 1025-1033 (2006). Similarly El Naschie wrote a paper on cosmic Da Vinci codes and another one entitled ‘The Fibonacci code behind super strings and P-Branes’ published in Chaos, Solitons & Fractals, 31, pp. 537-547 (2007). In other words, El Naschie is just finishing what the old Greek civilization started but at the end of the day, it was Lissi who drew our attention to all of that and whether he referred to Witten, Shwarz, Green and El Naschie or not, we must all thank and congratulate him.
David Grayson

on January 20, 2008
at 08:45 PM

I think Dan Winter concentrated on the most important aspect of Mohamed El Naschie’s work which is the golden mean. Dan’s genius realized that the golden mean is more fundamental than El Naschie’s Cantor sets. In fact the golden mean already implies a random Cantor set because it is equal to the Hausdorff dimension as discovered by two American mathematicians, D. Mauldin and his student Whiliams and this is a few years before El Naschie. Also Dan, just like Mohamed, realized that the Greek were there before anyone else. The symmetry of the Platonic bodies was postulated to be the key for understanding the universe. The most fundamental of the platonic bodies are, by their very nature, golden mean proportioned. All that is totally missing from Lissi’s work, but again, just as Lissi overlooked the monumental work of El Naschie, El Naschie overlooked a beautiful paper by the American Frank Potter. The paper is entitled ‘Geometrical basis for the standard mo del’, published in the Int. Journal of Theoretical Physics, 33, p. 279-305, 1994. In fact it seems that El Naschie, using the number of vertexes, edges and faces added together reached the same conclusion as Potter but using a different method. Nevertheless, he should have referred to Potter’s work exactly as he is entitled to priority for his work on E8 unification implied by his E-infinity theory. I am also concerned that Lissi seems to be taking sides in the string-loop struggle. Lissi, without much justification disregards super strings. However El Naschie’s work clearly shows that super strings and Brane theories are essential ingredients in the complete picture. I wish everyone to read the wonderful book of Lie Smolin ‘The trouble with physics’ to see that one should be fair and open minded to new ideas. I wish also that Lie Smolin would take his own book seriously and look more objectively at strings, Brane and other theories such as that of Dan W inters.
Sam Jameson
on January 18, 2008
at 09:46 PM

we did this in school it called String Art...Very pretty....
Pink Dragon
on January 18, 2008
at 06:42 PM

There might be some clues here * line 134: The quantity of energy taken in or given out when electronic or other positions are shifted is always a "quantum" or some multiple thereof, but the vibratory or wavelike behavior of such units of energy is wholly determined by the dimensions of the material structures concerned. Such wavelike energy ripples are 860 times the diameters of the ultimatons, electrons, atoms, or other units thus performing. The never-ending confusion attending the observation of the wave mechanics of quantum behavior is due to the superimposition of energy waves: Two crests can combine to make a double-height crest, while a crest and a trough may combine, thus producing mutual cancellation. * line 165: While the space charge of universal force is homogeneous and undifferentiated, the organization of evolved energy into matter entails the concentration of energy into discrete masses of definite dimensions and established weight--precise gravity reaction. * line 170: Ultimatons do not describe orbits or whirl about in circuits within the electrons, but they do spread or cluster in accordance with their axial revolutionary velocities, thus determining the differential electronic dimensions. This same ultimatonic velocity of axial revolution also determines the negative or positive reactions of the several types of electronic units. The entire segregation and grouping of electronic matter, together with the electric differentiation of negative source The UB E8 could be all linked with the ultimaton the very nature of matter Sevens
on January 15, 2008
at 08:53 PM

The important discovery of Garrett Lissi and Mohamed El Naschie regarding the incredible exceptional E8 of Lissi and E-infinity of El Naschie brought to mind the memory of an old story which I witnessed some 20 years ago. A very bright chap at Princeton worked on what became known as Quarternionic Quantum Mechanics and fields. Eventually he wrote a book which appeared in Oxford. He subsequently faced fierce opposition from some of his very powerful colleagues. Imagine what would have happened if he had written a book on octionic quantum field. This however is exactly what Lissi and El Naschie have rediscovered with a twist. Exceptional Lie groups are built on octonions. Incidentally quaternionic quantum mechanics also involves oconions but the unique character of octonionic quantum field theory was not that clear before Lissi’s work as well as El Naschie’s Cantorian spacetime. It is great that there are brave people like Garrett and Mohamed who can turn the tide. They are exceptional in a way. One is exceptionally poor and the other exceptionally rich, or so we are led to believe. Could we also make an exception and give these two outsiders their due with the same generosity with which they have given us a new theory? I do not think it will happen, but let us hope that the basic character of human beings may evolve for the better just like the evolution now taking place in theoretical physics thanks to these two scientific nomads.
Charles Wright

on January 15, 2008
at 02:55 PM

CORRECTION PLEASE? You very kindly posted my comments - 12 Jan 10.40 p.m. but on the third line of the 2nd para I put a symbol which has not appeared. Can this be corrected to .... by 3 plus phi where phi = 0.61833989.....
Josh Reid
on January 14, 2008
at 08:43 PM

The only real critisism of the papaer is the lack of acknowledgement of previous work which must have influenced or at least been part of the reason Lisi carried it out. However, anyone who brings ideas like this to a wider forum is only doing the world a favour. So on that point at least, well done, dude. I'm interested greatly in the practical aspects of this. I mean really useful physics that will let us explore more of the universe. I mean it's so frustrating that we can't even get into high earth orbit without all that buggering around with rockets. At least give us carbon nano-cable and an orbital elevator - better still let's have practical anti-gravity. It's all well and good having pretty math if it doesn't yield anything tangiable. Otherwise, you might as well believe in the Bible, pixies, leprechauns or whatever else you like and assign M-theory to the same rank as a religion or fantasy.
Richard While-Cooper
on January 14, 2008
at 03:23 PM

Dan Winter’s comments (posted Dec. 31, 2007) are only marginally right. Dan is of course well versed in many fields and cannot be taken lightly but Lissi was not only inspired by El Naschie’s work on the Golden mean ( Once the role of the Golden mean is understood, it is all there in place and Lissi must have read at least most of El Naschie’s work. The point is that starting from the order of E8 E8 which is given by 496 generators, El Naschie showed many years ago that the inverse electromagnetic fine structure constant is found when dividing this by 3 plus where = 0.61833989 is the Golden mean. In addition, using the exact transfinite expression El Naschie showed that the dimension of the exceptional Lie groups hierarchy 548.3281572 gives that of the compactified holographic Klein modular boundary by a simple Golden mean transformation, namely (548.3281572)(0.618033989) = 338.8854383. Transferring two more times gives the inverse electroweak coupling (338.8854383)(0.618033989)(0.618033989) = 129.4427192 which is almost equal to the experimental volume found in CERN in Geneva for this and many other examples. Furthermore calling 496 the Bulk (or B) and knowing that all of particle physics are represented by the boundary Klein modular space, 336 + 3 = 339 degrees of freedom which he calls H, then it is children’s arithmetic to deduce the inverse electromagnetic constant 137 denoted E given that Einstein’s gravity, G, corresponds to 20 components. Using El Naschie’s notation, we could write a world formula B = H + G + E which means 496 = 339 + 20 + 137. Said in another way, one can obtain any physical field from the rest by simple transformation. There is no need to insist on calling E8 E8 fundamental. I think it is not only very unfair but totally unprofessional not to give due credit to the work of El Naschie particularly after I spoke with a colleague who attended a presentation of El Naschie’s work last week in Trieste, Italy (Jan 7-9 where it seems his lecture was particularly well received. Two recent papers by El Naschie give lucid exposition of his theory: 1. An outline for a quantum golden filed theory. Chaos, Solitons & Fractals (2007) doi:10.1016/j:chaos.2007.09.092 ( 2. Quantum E-infinity field theoretical derivation of Newton’s gravitational constant. Int. J. of Nonlinear Sci. & Numerical Simulation, Vol. 8(4), 2007. Published in Israel by Freund ( .
Josh Reid

on January 12, 2008
at 10:40 PM

Give Lisi a break. Doesn't he deserve some credit for his brilliance? Let the man enjoy his wave of popularity. Afterall, he did admit that his theory was still subject to testing with the hadron collider. This statement has been made with the knowledge that the tests would either confirm or reject his theory. Additionally, as "me" wrote on December 21 2007 - let's not get unrooted with science vs religion. We should all be grateful (in agreement with "me" 21/12/2007) to posess the gift of knowledge given to us by GOD himself to be able to investigate and understand our Universe - ultimately the home which he created for us and any possible other life forms before or after us.
Marty X
on January 10, 2008
at 11:33 AM

Interesting. Similar to my onion-model of the universe. Remove the time dimension(which I don't think exists in nature anyway) and you get a perfectly rational view of life. Chaos and all.
Dave Coles
on January 09, 2008
at 06:38 AM

No! No! No! "Bonaya Samuel's unified field theory is an attempt to to co-orelate all the physical constants." Correlation IS NOT CAUSALITY !!! This theory is a piecemeal piece of hocus-pocus much alike the squib-explosive charge detonation after-the-fact theory for the prime cause that the WTCs fell on 9-11, in contrast to the effects from the jet impacts/explosions/fires. Again, correlation IS NOT CAUSATION !
Carlos Castaneda
on January 09, 2008
at 03:47 AM

Much has been written on Theory of everything and unified field theory. Bonaya Samuel's unified field theory is an attempt to to co-orelate all the physical constants. The theory is based on relativity of electron charge and proposes an infinite ultmate velocity, generalizes Maxwell's electromagnetic wave equation to what is called the generalized Maxwell's electic wave equation, which permits light to break it's own speed limit,generalizes special relativity to permit greater than light travel without violating causality. According to the theory signals travelling at speeds greater than light can carry information.The theory establishes a relation between the universal gravitational constant and fundamental particles and electromagnetic field.I believe the theory speaks for itself. Yours, Samuel Bonaya Buya
Samuel Bonaya Buya
on January 07, 2008
at 09:30 AM

Pray, what is a dude?
Nicholas Lee
on January 05, 2008
at 07:18 PM

Crap IS holy! Looked at your paper, Lisi Beautiful! you are a genius! Inspired, Perfect! Science meets Religion Justice and Mercy shall Kiss Beauty is in the simplicity of complexity 3.14 ... Star of David 1221 ... + X Holy Grail ...Sphere of Light Perfection 31415.. Alpha 122112...1111 Omega 2008 E8 12/12/12 A special invitation by our Mother 12/21/12 11:11 Era of Peace Genesis Chapter 3:14-15 Exodus Chapter 3:14-15 I AM WHO AM Ephesians 3:14-21 Expanse of God's Love Revelations Chapter 12:21 "A Woman with 12 stars above her head and the moon under her feet" Revelations Chapter 21 The End John 5:15 "And if we know that he listens to whatever we ask him, we already possess whatever we have asked of him" I ask that everyone should be saved, that no one will be "left behind" 5 more years! Do not be afraid!
on January 05, 2008
at 11:36 AM

No! No! No! 2 new dimensions 2 reflections 64 State Functions 32 corollaries 2 new fields of mathematics Time - State - Space - Mass Transfer -- maybe in your lifetime...maybe
Carlos Castaneda
on January 05, 2008
at 09:56 AM

6 x 9 = 54 or is it me? (I thought 7 x 6 = 42)
on January 05, 2008
at 03:36 AM

Does anyone know how long NOW or the the present lasts? Is it the Planc length of time? Is this what a brane is? Is the present like the formation of a crystal into its surrounds? The present's surrounds being that of the future. The crystal's that of space or salty water if your a salt crystal. Does anything exist either side of the present? Is it just a void or more branes? Answers on a post. This post preferably.
on January 04, 2008
at 03:09 PM

I read what Dr Lisi wrote in his paper titled "An Exceptionally Simple Theory of Everything". In my opinion, his work is mainly a repetition of the pioneering work of the Egyptian-born physicist M.S El -Naschie. El Naschie proposed for the first time the wide use of the exceptional Lie groups hierarchy in high energy physics. He deduced the value of the inverse fine structure constant using the sum of the E-series hierarchy. He also used the exceptional Lie groups to calculate the number and masses of elementary particles of the standard model. His fantastic results are summarized in his paper titled "from E-eight to E-infinity". In this paper El Naschie shows, for the first time, his views for the exceptional Lie group E-eight and how this group contains the other gauge groups that describe the standard model. He utilized the connection between E-eight to his Cantorian space time theory which is also called "E-infinity theory" to describe the unification of all fundamental interactions. Using this theory he gave a rigorous proof of quarks confinement, corrected some errors in the work on super symmetric grand unification and derived for the first time Newton’s gravitational constant. I cannot believe that Dr Lisi did not see El Naschie’s work especially because all of El Naschie’s papers are available on the internet and it is logical for anyone working in this area to first make a survey of all the work already published. In addition, the only Journal article which Dr. Lisi has written is co-authored by Prof. H. Abarbanel who is a well- known nonlinear dynamics and deterministic chaos expert familiar with El Naschie’s work, old or new. I regret to say that the first name and nationality of Prof. El Naschie may have played a role in omitting to give him credit for his work.

on January 03, 2008
at 09:35 PM

Personally, I think this is fantastically interesting. I'm just a high school student, and I wish I could understand more of both the physics and mathematics involved, but I definitely hope to follow this story. As far as the history of E8 goes, I wish I could understand more of the "controversy" too so that I could have a credible opinion. As a last word though, the nobel prize is an extremely prestigious award, and they have plenty of experience in who they give it to, I'm sure the recipient will deserve it. And as for 2012, well, we'll see won't we, but lets not forget Y2K.
on January 03, 2008
at 03:34 AM

I think that Dr Bund of the Centre Universale Nouvelles Enterprises in Geneva published on this theory last June.
on January 02, 2008
at 07:30 AM

'Spirograph' indeed? -However, if we consider that each rectangle in this 248 point model, could (eventually-it used to be slow but is much improved now) be run through the famous 'MoldFlow' mesh generator; this would result in billions of triangles. (4 per rectangle, (=12 'nodes'), at its crudest and simplest extrapolation). This would obviously create a very interesting model. -"Nothing to laugh about?" -as the Germans would say). Using the massive plastics materials database, (represented by multipoint variable numerical data), we could then create anyone on the planet at random, purely by choosing a 'node' at any point within the model, as the injection point? -The next incredible iteration would be a finite link with genetic data, from that 'purely basic' and intermediate result? [Effectively we could produce anyone on the planet in a variety of plastic materials, until we found one which we all liked, then elect it as Prime Minister]. -Lets face it, anything would be better than the choices we have now? Let's get that ion beam gun fired-up and rolling! (Which already makes mild steel more wear resistant via 'ion implantation,' -by x 50!) Before we all become extremely worn out?
Edward Ashley-Smith
on January 01, 2008
at 11:34 AM

Lisi's model inspired by EL Naschie's work on Golden Mean ratio.. is just an indirect way to learn that.. Golden Ratio Based Fractal Self Similarity is the Electrical Cause of Gravity
dan winter
on December 31, 2007
at 05:21 AM

What does this new theory have to say about magnetic monopoles? Does it give more complete symmetry to the Maxwell equations?
Brian Karas
on December 30, 2007
at 06:14 AM

I found some amusing similarities, analogies and dualities between the two apparent amateurs of theoretical physics, Garrett Lisi and Mohamed El Naschie. Both seem to share the same starting point with Werner Heisenberg, namely fluid turbulence. Both have found nonlinear dynamics and chaos to be useful tools in solving the mysteries of turbulence. Lisi worked with Abarbanel of University of California at La Jolla, USA. El Naschie worked with T. Kapitaniak in Lodz, Poland and Nobel laureate Ilya Prigogine, Brussels, Belgium. Duality comes from Lisi being a penniless surfer riding the waves in Hawaii while El Naschie is an Alpinian skier and comes from an extremely rich background and is said to have been a multi-millionaire at the age of 30. The two guys seem to be easy going and pleasant – at least that is what comes across from the interviews of Lisi and the Wikipedia profile of El Naschie ( and his German based homepage (http:/ / On the other hand, what gives us here reason to reflect on the current way of doing research is that both men may be accurately described as amateurs with theoretical physics being just a hobby. Could it be that only such people, outside the main stream and the rat race for position and money, are the only ones capable of finding something fundamental and totally new. We should all reflect on this point.
Jo Greenburg

on December 23, 2007
at 10:08 PM

I read what Dr Lisi wrote in his paper titled "An Exceptionally Simple Theory of Everything". In my opinion, his work is mainly a repetition of the pioneering work of the Egyptian-born physicist M.S El -Naschie. El Naschie proposed for the first time the wide use of the exceptional Lie groups hierarchy in high energy physics. He deduced the value of the inverse fine structure constant using the sum of the E-series hierarchy. He also used the exceptional Lie groups to calculate the number and masses of elementary particles of the standard model. His fantastic results are summarized in his paper titled "from E-eight to E-infinity". In this paper El Naschie shows, for the first time, his views for the exceptional Lie group E-eight and how this group contains the other gauge groups that describe the standard model. He utilized the connection between E-eight to his Cantorian space time theory which is also called "E-infinity theory" to describe the unification of all fundamental interactions. Using this theory he gave a rigorous proof of quarks confinement, corrected some errors in the work on super symmetric grand unification and derived for the first time Newton’s gravitational constant. I cannot believe that Dr Lisi did not see El Naschie’s work especially because all of El Naschie’s papers are available on the internet and it is logical for anyone working in this area to first make a survey of all the work already published. In addition, the only Journal article which Dr. Lisi has written is co-authored by Prof. H. Abarbanel who is a well- known nonlinear dynamics and deterministic chaos expert familiar with El Naschie’s work, old or new. I regret to say that the first name and nationality of Prof. El Naschie may have played a role in omitting to give him credit for his work.
d. moffett

on December 23, 2007
at 06:59 PM

If you cannot use your real name for what you are posting, you should not post it.
Steve Brandon
on December 23, 2007
at 04:45 PM

Here is another theory based upon all matter being comprised of equal size, charge-less spheres. As well, there are speculations as to space being mathematically comprised of fixed points and other related concerns. I would also point you to an original poem called Surfer Dudes. Here is the url for the poem and one for my postulates...comments appreciated... My mathematical efforts can be seen too here -
steve waterman
on December 22, 2007
at 01:13 PM

I just stumbled upon this article today and am very excited to see discussion has continued since its publication! This is not something that should be ignored - even if it is not accurate, it is so exciting that such interest and progress is being made! And for those of you who wonder if we have abandoned God, fear not. God would not have given us the ability to understand these things if He did not want us to. It is the same reason He allowed us to evolve and become who we are. God and Science do not need to be separate. It's as if God is allowing us to see our baby book - to look back and see how we came to be. It's a miracle that we are capable of functioning such levels, and we should be grateful that He allows us this privilege... we should not be cursing down those who explore science. Science would not exist if God did not want it to. And Science does not disprove anything about God. The Bible is not wrong - but one must remember that it was written at a time when Quantum Physics would have made no sense to man, so it was written in terms he would understand, so he would be able to believe. And now, thousands of years later, we CAN understand these things. So why is it so unforgivable that we attempt to? So many people are turning away from God because the explanations offered by the ancient book do not sufficiently answer their questions. If you had a question about your computer, would you read an instruction manual written in 1800? There was simply no KNOWLEDGE to explain it then - so it was not written about! Rather than forcing Science and God to remain separate, we should be embracing the fact that God has allowed us to understand these things and to gain new knowledge... it does not mean the universe was NOT the work of God - it just means it was created a little differently than we once understood. Don't be afraid of it - it's miraculous.
on December 21, 2007
at 07:02 PM

Well, Dr. Lisi... you're close. You're closer even than El Naschie was and he was the closest before you. But, you're going to need to start thinking in even simpler terms... fewer dimensions. Greater progress will be made with the accelerator/collider and confirmed with the telescope. Harken back to the Buckyball. Hint: Only 5 gaps, not 20... and 2 non-appearances. I'll give you the answer on Dec. 22, 2012. p.s. Yes. They will find wormholes and a few more particles. p.p.s You can't travel through time, but you can "see" through time. Unfortunately, that can only be accomplished in one direction: backwards. Good Luck.

on December 21, 2007
at 03:39 AM

Following P. Gerard’s comments posted a day ago on December 19, I decided to find out about this Mohamed El Naschie. I searched for him on SPIRES Web Page of Stanford Slack (see:; (,+M.). I found a staggering 106 papers by him - at least 25 of them are related to Exceptional Lie groups, quarks confinement and quantum field theory. The son of a gun has cleaned up the site. He started from the platonic bodies with golden mean proportions and worked his way via Coexter’s 120-cells and 600 cell polytops to a golden mean constructed exceptional Lie group hierarchies. Subsequently, I was amazed that he made predictions for a total number of missing elementary particles: 9 or 12 or 20 or 24 depending on various increasing energy scales. These particles are over and above the ones already found in the standard model. It seems that Garrett Lisi’s colleagues have triggered a tidal wave.
Michael Poulter
on December 20, 2007
at 11:27 PM

After reading this artical I got a flash and was about to post the answer to everything was "42". Then I decided to do a page search and found about 100 references to "42" and decided my pitiful attempt at humor to be rather, well, pitiful. Lesson to self and everyone reading this. Nobody likes a wise guy. I will follow this story with great interest.
Larry Brewer
on December 20, 2007
at 10:59 PM

i like the beach too
on December 20, 2007
at 05:45 AM

Doesn't anyone believe in God anymore? What has happened to our nation? The explanation is SIMPLE! It's all written in the Bible. 191 Prophecies fulfilled and yet no one believes a word of them. What's wrong with you morons? Have a little Faith in your Father eh?
on December 20, 2007
at 04:18 AM

Yet again, it seems, someone without formal afiliation succeeds where academics have failed. Perhaps that alone has something to teach us about science as a whole. Argument over this is futile. Results from the Large Hadron Collider will either confirm or refute his thesis, spectacularly, as he himself states at the end of his paper. But the sheer elegance of its synchrony with E8 is very encouraging. As to its usefulness - I'm old enough to remember when people said quantum theory was a pointless mental exercise ... but it gave us lasers, now used everywhere from CD players to supermarket check-outs. This could be very good news indeed.
jim davies
on December 20, 2007
at 02:11 AM

If Dr. Lisi is working on unified theory AND has to find a place to stay at night, what's his girlfriend doing? Working out the geoengineering solution to global sea level rise? If nothing that intimidating, I need to get Dr. Finkelstein to introduce me to this guy. I'm a pretty awful physicist, but I build a great house!
on December 20, 2007
at 01:47 AM

Regarding the Garrett Lisi E8 unification theory and the Lisi-Elnaschie controversy, I would like to sum up the situation as follows: 1. Lisi’s work has been recognized by many leading scientists notably Lee Smolin as a milestone in theoretical physics (see for instance article by Roger Highfield at http: 2. Various scientists have proposed that Lisi’s work deserves the Nobel prize in Physics. (see for instance comment posted by Thomas Ledbetter of November 15 (2007) at 3. Several theoretical physicists and scholars have pointed out that the Egyptian scientist, M. S. El Naschie reached the same conclusions of Lisi some 14 years earlier and that M. Green of Cambridge, UK and J. Schwarz of Caltech, USA and E. Witten of Princeton, USA were the first to discover E8 for high energy physics. (see S. Traener comments on November 23 (2007) and Maurice Meyers November 19 (2007) 4. Few commentators have expressed deep concern about Lisi’s work. The fact that he did not publish any of his work in any scientific journal and overlooked previous works was found to be unacceptable practice. Some said Lisi’s work is a clever reformulation of El Naschie’s work published much earlier in Elsevier Journal: Chaos, Solitons & Fractals (see comments by Edmund Ralph posted December 9 (2007)) 5. Some have proposed that Lisi, Green, Schwarz and El Naschie should share a Nobel prize in physics and warned against turning the issue to one of racial and religious discrimination involving Arabs, Moslems and Jews which is totally foreign to science. (see comments by Peter Hartley on December 10(2007)) In my opinion, what we need now is a sober evolution of the work of Lisi, El Naschie and the super strings and loop quantum mechanics school. Many ask why E8? The answer is simple: E8 is the largest exceptional Lie group that can exist. Some ask where is the natural randomness? The answer is simple. It is in the transfinite version of E8 as shown in the work of Ji Huan He, Marek Crnjac and Gerardo Iovane and all are published in Chaos, Solitons & Fractals (Elsevier, a leading nonlinear dynamics journal with the highest impact factor in the field also found on their website It is clearly not sufficient to just take E8. We must take a transfinite, chaotic and random E8 exceptional Lie group shadowing the crisp classical E8 of Green, Schwarz and Witten as shown by El Naschie. In this context, we should not forget the pioneering work of G. ‘tHooft on deterministic quantum mechanics. We appreciate the many witty remarks posted on this site but the subject is serious and needs serious consideration. As a first step may I draw attention to the following excellent readings namely two papers by G. ‘tHooft and M. S. El Naschie published by the American Institute of Physics: “Frontiers of Fundamental Physics” (2006) ISBN 978-0-7354-0412-0, pages 56-66 and pages 84-102. In addition, the extension of E8 to a transfinite E8 is given in “An outline for a quantum golden field theory”, Chaos, Solitons & Fractals (2007) published by Elsevier as well as “Towards a quantum golden field theory” in International Journal of Nonlinear Sciences and Numerical Simulation, 8(4) pp. 477-482 (2007) published by Freund in Israel.
P. Gerard

on December 19, 2007
at 10:32 PM

There is a guy who's work even predates your Moslem scholar. He claims to have been a researcher at Los Alamos many years ago. Looks like he noticed something about this math, but even the Dr Finklestein mentioned in the article wouldn't support his work a decade ago.
on December 19, 2007
at 04:41 AM

The waves are the thing. Whether the Alfa and Omega walked them on Galilee or you just ride them off Hawaii.
on December 18, 2007
at 10:42 AM

Right or wrong, Lisi is challenging accredited physicists to think again. The community has everything to gain and nothing to lose by Lisi's theories.
on December 16, 2007
at 08:39 PM

Mr Lisi if you are a fraud then your a good one. Surf the wave. To all the contributers: Thanks for the entertainment, the worthy, the fart analysts and the handbag designers and I personaly think its OK to be bald and surf. Bless you all and Merry Christmas
Philip Palij
on December 14, 2007
at 08:54 PM

Most of these comments are silly.
on December 14, 2007
at 02:44 PM

If Dr. Lisi is skiing down a slope in a symmetry fashion, is he following one of the E8's paths?
A. Einstein
on December 13, 2007
at 09:30 PM

Sure! But where is Waldo in all of this???
on December 13, 2007
at 09:15 PM

Looks like Lisi likes to take acid and play with his Spirograph set!!! If you take wheel #D4 using a blue pen; and take wheel # B8 using a red pen.... You can see A. Einstein giving you the bird!!!
on December 13, 2007
at 03:50 PM

"...but I am reminded of this quote by H.L. Menchen: "For every problem there is one solution which is simple, neat and wrong". Posted by griga262 My response to this is a quote by Albert Einstein. "When the solution is simple, God is answering." If only we could put Mencken and Einstein in a peanut butter jar and make them fight like ants...
Rockie the Bastard
on December 12, 2007
at 10:14 PM

I did this with my spirograph when i was 6
on December 12, 2007
at 01:42 PM

I make it 43.
on December 12, 2007
at 03:31 AM

What does it predict? Does it predict the ionization energies of helium, lithium, etc? Does it predict the excited states of helium, lithium, etc? Does it predict particle masses from physical laws? It is yet another purely mathematical attempt to curve-fit the universe with nice math-- without any kind of predictive or technological value whatsoever.
on December 12, 2007
at 01:41 AM

I always thought the Periodic Table was shaped like a piece of an extra-dimensional mandala...
Darth Brooks
on December 11, 2007
at 08:51 PM

It is not uncommon that a novice could overlook the contributions of others as is the case with Garrett Lisi’s paper “An exceptionally simple Theory of Everything.” However, how could a connoisseur of the literature; a past political left wing activist and a leading quantum gravity specialist such as Lee Smolin not know the various fundamental papers published on the pivotal role played by the E8 and E6 exceptional Lie groups in particle physics and the theory of unification. The beautiful new Book of the Beckers and J. H. Schawrz “String theory and M theory” goes even few steps further and proposes the equivalent of SO(10) and SU(5) with E5 and E4 . A recent paper published in Elsevier Science Direct Journal called Chaos, Solitons and Fractals, an interdisciplinary Journal for Nonlinear Dynamics, Quantum and Nanotechnology entitled “From E8 to E-Infinity” wraps it all up. In this paper, an Egyptian, M. S. El Naschie shows an incredible connection bet ween the total sum of all exceptional Lie symmetry groups dimension 548 and the inverse electromagnetic fine structure coupling 548/4 = 137. In addition, the Egyptian concluded, following earlier work by Freeman Dyson, that the maximum number of elementary particles at the energy scale of the standard model is a maximum of half the inverse value. That means approximately 69 particles. The theory of E-Infinity is at least 15 years old and it is based on a new irrational quasi-binary system utilizing the miraculous properties of the golden mean and the Fibonacci numbers within this system (2)(248) = 496 of E8 E8 is reduced to 496-(0.18033989) = 495.9674775 while 137 is increased to 137.08203932. These small differences make a big difference and are behind the success of E-Infinity theory. Those interested in the nitty-gritty should read issue 2 of volume 35 of Chaos, Solitons & Fractals (January 2008). Particularly, the aforementioned paper from E-eight to E-Infinity pp. 285-290 of the same issue is of special interest. At least the abstract if not the entire paper maybe found on Science Direct I think those responsible for this omission, owe the concerned authors an apology. It is regrettable that many emails sent to the “New Scientist” which featured Lisi’s paper and Lee Smolin’s comments, remain unanswered. Honesty is the grain of science and it would be a great calamity if we lose this as well.
M. Gribbens

on December 11, 2007
at 08:04 PM

The Lisi-El Naschie controversy is highly interesting for multiple reasons. Let me first address the non-scientific facet. Garrett Lisi represents the all American Guy; athletic, optimistic, courageous and innocent. Mohamed Saladin El Naschie on the other hand is a shining example of an enlightened, cosmopolitan Arab Moslem and scholar. It would be immensely regrettable if the background of both men is misused by certain forces to create a political controversy with racial or a religious accent out of what is squarely scientific issues. Lisi has undoubtedly grossly overlooked El Naschie’s work on E8 unification which preceded Lisi’s work by at least a decade. However Lisi’s theory is formulated in the language of loop quantum mechanics while El Naschie’s relies heavily on the terminology and the methodology of nonlinear dynamics, chaos and heterotic super strings. Some people have recently suggested that Garret Lisi should be awarded the Nobel Prize in Physics. I think this would be going too far. Prof. Green and Prof. Schwarz are the first to discover E8 for physics. El Naschie perfected the procedure and used an exceptional Lie symmetry group hierarchy involving all exceptional and unification groups. El Naschie also demonstrated that the dimension of the E-line symmetry groups gauged in mega electron volts and gega electron volts gives the mass of various mesons and that way established completely new connections to the problem of the mass spectrum of high energy elementary particles. A by product of El Naschie’s theory is a neat mathematical proof of quarks confinement. I think that if a Nobel prize is seriously considered then Michael Green, John Schwarz, Mohamed El Naschie and Garrett Lisi must all share it.
Peter Hartley
on December 10, 2007
at 10:00 AM

"Hasn't this guy and those falling for this rubbish,a proper job to do? In the beginning God made the Heavens and the Earth. " And now, perhaps with this theory, we'll figure out HOW he did it!
on December 09, 2007
at 09:21 PM

Referring to the comment by S. Traener on Nov 23, I did some googling for the names mentioned combined with the phrase " Exceptional Lie groups in physics". The first page of the search results always displayed one or two titles by one whose name in the comment by Traener. That is El Naschie. Two more new names appeared. Unfortunately, I have no access to the hosting journals, but a comparison of the key words of each with that in Lisi's paper on the arXive indicate a remarkable overlap. Moreover, these two matches claim very similar results to lisi's. I'm working on trying to get the full text from a friend in the academia to be able to do more precise comparison. Yet I think we owe Dr Lisi an explanation why didn't he mention all the others who did similar work using the E8, particularly El Naschie?! I belive he, as a professional, should have access to such journals and should have done enough literature survey before publishing.
Edmund Ralph

on December 09, 2007
at 07:05 PM

Whatever theory is found to unify the forces we know about in Physics is bound to incorporate symmetry. Physical events such as annihilation and pairs production depend on symmetry. Subatomic particles are defined by their spin and relation to other particles. This all strongly suggests a greater symmetry of which we are not aware. I like the fact that Dr. Surfer Dude's theory agrees with the observable and doesn't seem to contradict any of the accepted fundamentals of Physics. Is he right ? Who knows. It is certainly beyond my present knowledge to determine. I would like to point out however that those who criticize solutions that seem simple should look at the strange mathematical symmetries between the work of Maxwell, Plank and Einstein. Although some of the math is anything but simple, many of the equations produced are extremely simple. E=hf. E=mc2. I would say this E8 theory has a much better chance of being at least partially correct than String Theory which is so much science fiction.
on December 09, 2007
at 01:43 PM

<<<<"Hasn't this guy and those falling for this rubbish,a proper job to do? In the beginning God made the Heavens and the Earth. ">> Are you kidding. Where is the proof in your argument, quoting a document that is hundreds of years old? It's like saying fire must be the true god because it was worshiped by cave men before science came along. Don't denounce something just because your mind is too closed to accept it. This is a result of the brainwashing done to you by your religious institution. Science will continue on searching for the truth despite your inability to even begin to comprehend it.>> I understand you objection to what was said, but that doesn't mean you have to insult their intelligence. I agree with you a bit, but everyone has their own theories. There is absolutely no way we can disprove that there is a higher power, so there is no point in condemning those who do believe in a higher power.
Brendan George
on December 08, 2007
at 06:32 PM

Great news ! But I don't understand whay God is attracted to 248 ?
Moshe Klein
on December 07, 2007
at 07:55 AM

Did you just steal quotes from the New Scientist ( article? Perhaps its a British journalism thing...
on December 07, 2007
at 05:08 AM

Every time Pluto(I dont care if they dont think its a planet anymore) crosses the Galactic axis or node the world view changes , is this the idea that will do it...............the time is ripe
on December 07, 2007
at 02:56 AM

<<"Hasn't this guy and those falling for this rubbish,a proper job to do? In the beginning God made the Heavens and the Earth. ">> Are you kidding. Where is the proof in your argument, quoting a document that is hundreds of years old? It's like saying fire must be the true god because it was worshiped by cave men before science came along. Don't denounce something just because your mind is too closed to accept it. This is a result of the brainwashing done to you by your religious institution. Science will continue on searching for the truth despite your inability to even begin to comprehend it.
Truth is like ripping off a band-aid
on December 07, 2007
at 01:12 AM

john dougal
on December 07, 2007
at 01:04 AM

God bless Albert Hoffman!
The Rob
on December 06, 2007
at 08:25 AM

Hasn't this guy and those falling for this rubbish,a proper job to do? In the beginning God made the Heavens and the Earth.
Ward. (William)
on December 05, 2007
at 11:18 PM

The lack of practice degraded my physics and mathematics skills and I surely would need a lot of side reading to fill the gaps and understand everything, still I have the impression this theory wont work :(. I am saying this only to be able to point out later - "I said so". However, I am almost sure that a layman will come with the right ideas one day. I doubt those "right" ideas would be able to carry a caption containing words like "unified" or "universal" meaning I am standing with those who consider the universe universally subjective at any level and the "objective" truth described by any theory is a projection that needs not be consistent at all. Even if you call this projection a contract (as some prefer) it still does not need to be universal or consistent or at least that is something hard to proove without too much assumptions... It is difficult to bind this to math models (I know some people who did a little bit about that, but not enough), still math or no math the implicat ions of such setup are too crazy for the deterministic majority. The scientific community only becomes more conservative in time (one of my reasons to abandon physics after the university) and despite all the hints for non-deteministic universe in the ruling theories most scientists still have a mind of a person who looks for a nice classic explanation and feel "of it all".
on December 05, 2007
at 09:56 PM

Reminds me of Kepler's nested regular polyhedra theory. He saw a beautiful geometry, and hoped planetary orbits would be based on it. It was a beautiful idea, but it did not work out in this case. Here we have the same thing, at a more abstract and fundamental level. Also a beautiful idea, certainly worth investigating. Who knows what truths lies in there... ===============================> Kepler had drawn inscribed and circumscribed circles to an equilateral triangle. He realized that the ratio of the radii was the same as the ratio of orbital radii of Saturn and Jupiter. Kepler believed there had to be meaning behind such a result. Kepler argued that given that Saturn and Jupiter were the first two planets of the Solar System and that the triangle was the simplest polygon, then the ratio of the orbital radii of Jupiter and Mars should be in the same ratio as the radii of the circumscribed and inscribed circles to a square, the second simplest polygon. The orbital radii of Mars and Earth, by the same measure, should be related to the circumscribed and inscribed circles to a pentagram. Kepler's reasoning was logical enough but false in reality. He then turned to a 3D nested polyhedra model which he described in the Mysterium Cosmographicum. ===============================<
Pierre Charland
on December 05, 2007
at 01:03 PM

very interesting every
on December 05, 2007
at 12:57 PM

Hey wrangerboy, Thats the best comment on here - worthy of the much esteemed publication 'Vis' Mark Jordan (47)
mark jordan
on December 05, 2007
at 02:36 AM

I am not smart enough to comment on the theory itself. Yes, it would be nice to have a theory where everything is simple, but I am reminded of this quote by H.L. Menchen: "For every problem there is one solution which is simple, neat and wrong".
on December 04, 2007
at 06:04 PM

The angle of the dangle is ultimately determined by the heat of the meat
Aladdin Sarsippius
on December 04, 2007
at 05:38 PM

wow. None of this makes any sense to me. At all. I need some acid.
on December 04, 2007
at 05:37 PM

Goodness, a new unified theory, from a surfer dude, sorry, Dr Surfer Dude. I have to say, I find this all a little depressing. He's figured out the interaction between weak and strong forces, postulated a solution to the old "how many lick does it take to get to the secret center of a hydrogen atom" conundrum and can test all this (assuming someone will give him the keys to the super particle collider). Conversely I can't even figure out my cell phone bill. Based on what I've learned so far, my cellular carrier seems to calculate their invoice using a variation of string theory since no rational test can prove or disprove the amount listed on the bottom of the bill is actually what I owe them. I think there might even be a line item for inter-dimensional roaming charges, I'm not really certain. I can only assume Dr Surfer Dude doesn't have a cell phone, or if he does, he has an E-8 related cellular theory he whips out every time his carrier starts stacking zeros at the end of his bill. Is he right? I don't know, I'm basically a retard. I find the very idea that I might have an opinion about quantum physics to be insanely hilarious. However, the thought that someone might be reading the responses hoping to find some sort of validation for the theory is the only thing keeping me going, for though I might be thick as a brick, I'm not quite that thick. Well, big smoochies from the far side of the puddle, we're keeping your spot warm in case you guys decide you want back into the Iraqi civil war, and keep speaking English, it's the only thing keeping the 82nd airborne out of Piccadilly circus (your fault, you had to go and find oil under the North Sea.)
on December 04, 2007
at 03:38 AM

Mr Lisi has apparently hit on a better way to fit the various fields into a unified theory. Just the fact that it is simple convinces me that he must be onto something. Add to that the beautiful symmetry, and I'm hooked. The apparent complexity of the universe is only an illusion, brought on by scale and viewpoint. If you look at a mess of stars, they seem random, but, on further examination, there is a nice rotating spiral galaxy. Surfer dude no doubt got some inspiration by his first-hand experiencing of wave theory. As Buckminster Fuller wrote, we are on the edge between utopia and oblivion. By the way, the thirty-sided polygon that's supposed to represent E8 by its mutual interconnections between points might be better expressed by the interconnections between the thirty midpoints of the edges of an icosahedron.
Mike Regan
on December 04, 2007
at 01:05 AM

The diagram is made of straight lines. Spirographs drew curves.
Herb Patterson
on December 03, 2007
at 07:18 AM

I was looking at the E8,trying to understand it's deeper meaning and after about a minute my gaze began to relax and then - woah dude! - I 3D image of Albert Einstein came into view. Excellent!
Jason Read
on December 02, 2007
at 10:54 AM

Is it possible that as mankind embarks on what maybe our last time on earth (one possible outcome of the imbalance we have caused in nature)the understanding of all creation wil be given to man? Does that mean we could figure out how to "disable plutonium"? I joke but if this thing pans out and they find these particles, then they can figure out how to use this knowlegde to help save the planet maybe? That would be a much better story than " Mankind discovers secret of creation / but dies off thirty years later / twenty years earlier than prdicted by scientists". I am a musician (soon to have music on myspace) and ever since I was a child I have always felt that God was in everything, all the time, constantly, without end or beginning, including inside of me... and all of you. What is looking out of me at you... is fundamentally the same "thing that is looking out of you (literally) at me. Call it an awareness, call it a soul, call it a divine feeling, call it perfect art, call it perfect harmony, call it e8... anyway you slice it is the creator. Yes Santa... there is a Creator. Ask yourself this one very simple, simple, question? Why is everything in this creation our universe, without exception, complete and perfect art and majesty. Why is everything in creation so blindingly beautifull? Maybe because there is something beyond all description (until now) that is powering the whole of it? I guess I am lucky because in my life I have come to appreciate every moment. Life is so precious. I only hope that some good comes of this as we are about to go blindly marching off the cliff of our own greed and arrogance into what will surley be a very strange future, as nature works out what to do about us. Maybe nature will put us on the extinction list. Have a good day, egh?
Robert Driscoll
on December 02, 2007
at 07:54 AM

Hi, No No No I found stop to all,the theory of spherization all goes to the spherization,yes EUREKA from Belgium . The Theory of Spherization.. If you want come on XING plateforme .I found its'not a joke . SPHERIZATION EUREKA EUREKA
on December 01, 2007
at 07:24 PM

Stop calling us "Surfer Dudes".
Chris M.
on December 01, 2007
at 07:23 PM

The doctor should reference QGGM for QCD (Pronounced Quiggem for Qui-kid) Theory at the USPTO, as Technical Gravity. The Doctor's model is good but without integration into mine, he's missing the point and it does not qualify as a Unifying Theory. Though it would make a nice china pattern. Though incomplete in [process of time, ref:Technical Gravity] it is a profound thought and a beautiful observation by nature. I applaud this. It is not surprising at all that he surfs, nature repeats her patterns most beautifully on the beach. This is why I live near the Beach in St. Augustine, Florida. The Doctor can stop to discuss the two theories and their portions of agreement - when ever he likes the waves. There is a nice winter break out here.
James Reginald Harris, Jr.
on December 01, 2007
at 11:46 AM

X + Y = 7. Find Y ^ It's here. -Brit Surf Dude
on November 30, 2007
at 09:51 PM

Ron Pavellas
on November 30, 2007
at 04:34 PM

Well,I will have to read through everything,but this is most fascinating! Of course I'm not versed in physics,but I will comment: Mankind can do two things:leave things as they are,or go deep into the meaning and wonder of creation and journey into the origins of the cosmos and everything? Well,looks like we have already started this path and you can ask"are we any better off?"Perhaps we won't know for sure until the very end of "everything".If this was to occur and our scientist say it will... Of course we may help the end along even faster... For the ones who believe in a Creator or God,you might say to try and achieve the root meaning of "everything" and the how and why's is like trying to figure out God and his workings and reasoning.for the ones of certain faiths,they have already worked it out for themselves and that's because they believe what was given to them through "faith",which needs no explanation,otherwise it would no be called faith. So,would we be better off knowing this knowledge? How would we use it? Have we used other discoveries well? Have we contributed to a world which is governed by power and control to fight over these amazing enlightenments and workings that man with science has harnessed and achieved? So I put to you,have we created our own reality? this something which was brought about by God? For if by God,then as you must believe,it will come about and be so.Or,do we just tap into what is aready there? And,can this all be measured and explained by mathamatical formulas? I sometimes feel it cannot.Math,an invention by man is a working or thinking of our reality.Just as time is another invention used for man's purpose in his reality. I feel perhaps much can be explained in the consciousness of man himself and in knowing more and being able to tap into our own source,we may also be able to connect with other realities,dimensions and possibly the Creator or Creation itslf. I feel there is a connection to consciousness and creation.And possibly as we create,there is one who has already created and is the greater Creator and we may serve as proof to this fact. If there is such a program I would like to submit drawings of detailed,clear and precise geometric symbols given to me in visions a few years back.They were amazing.All are different and one resembles the above picture.There as an awareness I felt and some were,how can I say...moving and alive.Many had dimension.This is unlike nothing else I've seen,but I liken most to the crop circles. I feel man will be able to time travel.In dreams I have traveled and spoken to others.They have traveled to me.It may be that we are the ones that some see as the aliens.Possibly we will find out. Remember,a dream is only as real as we believe it to be.Intuition is only a thought until it is acted upon.And a dream becomes a reality when it is put into action. Best wishes, Rainmusic<>
Georgtte Salavec
on November 30, 2007
at 07:25 AM

Each wave function collapse brings about a new parallel universe?? or the two universes already exist but we are not tied to one until the result is observed??? Am I on the right track to understanding this???
on November 30, 2007
at 02:28 AM

Garret is the real deal! I spent two weeks in Tahiti surfing with him. He can make great sandwiches too!
on November 29, 2007
at 10:01 PM

WHOA! This is interesting. Did he really find the theory of everything?!
on November 29, 2007
at 08:26 PM

I feel very much concerned by all this stuff since I am a physicist and I've left the academy since 1999. Now I am 39 and I still have fun with mathematical models. Lisi's paper is OK, except the point he does not fell self-assured about all this. Lisi's paper is OK, since it is an invitation to re-open my Georgi and work on these exceptional Lie Groups.
Jean-Marc Robin
on November 29, 2007
at 02:45 PM

Beautiful mandala :)
on November 29, 2007
at 01:52 PM

I wanted to thank Roger Highfield. years ago we corresponded about a short article for the Telegraph on climate change and dinosaurs. Roger gave me some invaluable advice on popular science writing, which has been with me ever since, including two weeks ago when I handed over my finished book (published by Wiley in May 08) 'Geoforensics'. Thanks Roger, I'll send you a copy if you respond!
Alastair Ruffell
on November 29, 2007
at 01:37 PM

This rules. I hope this guy gets an amazing job from this paper.
on November 29, 2007
at 04:53 AM

There is a fundamental requirement, in general neglected, that any TOE must satisfy: A successful TOE must be able to explain the Don Borghi's experiment The Don Borghi's experiment can be seen in the two links bellow: DON BORGHI'S EXPERIMENT: DISCUSSION:
wladimir guglinski
on November 29, 2007
at 01:53 AM

I think my grandchildren have a toy that can draw one of those things.
on November 28, 2007
at 11:49 PM

The E8 symbol seems to be a cross between a Tibetan Mandela and a T shirt made by an acid head from a Greatful Dead concert
on November 28, 2007
at 09:58 PM

This theory isn't valid. It can't explain how Fecal Transplants work. Seriously though, no math equation will ever discover WHY we all exist (if we do exist).
on November 28, 2007
at 09:46 PM

I think my mom used to have The E8 on our living room wall in the seventies...I remember A LOT of nails and string...and after staring at it for a while, other things made more sense.
on November 28, 2007
at 06:36 AM

I always knew the universe was all crazy. Even before I saw this whole E8 phenom, I thought of the universe as a person eating their own ass! No, but with all honesty, in the universe, some objects are produced, while others are consumed. All equaling out in the end. Whether the reaction produces actual matter or a form of anti-matter, waste of some shape or form(or idea...) is produced.
El Grosso
on November 28, 2007
at 05:46 AM

Everything shines and sounds, echoes and aches with a certain constellation of truth, a visceral truth that is immediately apprehended from one’s past encounters, call it experience, that is, one’s stored memories and an actual encounter with ones’ sense memories and concurrent with  the object of stimulation that triggers a link of understanding, an apparent match or pattern, a collapse into unity; that is, the truth sensing organ, developed from mind, mind, developed from habit, habit, developed from sense, sense, collected around systems of self, self, dynamically folding and unfolding, constrained by resource and resource recognition, limited by universal constants, finite and irreducible, produces a certain regularity and since, your systems of systems are of the same sort, which is the key, the transport tangent, that which is and that which is understood by you to be you; exchanges likes for likes, and at this tangent , this point of contact, an exchange occurs, an exchange that opens avenues, avenues of creation and transformation, avenues of dissolution and destruction, embedding and hybridizing, all happening everywhere all at once, on the thin film of reality and all of which is projected into consciousness and diffuses and dissipates into the fabric of energy, time and dimensionless space; to be distilled and rarified into your genome, codified into your tombs and treaties of thought, flittering on mimetic wings and embedding and infusing in static and dynamic nodes of intermingled harmonic modes of perpetual awareness, coalescing in a gathering space, containing only and all of the tangents, call it the tangential space of reason; and in this space of reason and existing only in this space a communication occurs, a communication that is incapable of occurring elsewhere, call it the private mind of an unapproachable intellect of unspeakable proportions; but know, it is but only one in a myriad of uniquely unfathomable beings, each of which can be ascribed a number but not understood or properly defined by any mere label; these numbers are used only to identify the space which separates each from the other; and it is in this negative understanding this inverse of that which is, that we push about with our words and deeds; but take pause and consider the index, the index of all those numbers, a connected space whose unified topology sublimates into a vaporous state of pure nothingness, the bedrock of existence.
on November 27, 2007
at 07:30 PM

CONSCIOUSNESS awareness and the self recognized PRECEPTION of one's place in their OWN view of REALITY and how they interact within it; will determine how soon the REAL TRUTH will be revealed to them.
on November 27, 2007
at 06:22 PM

this is great, but what is beyond the graph ?
steven bates
on November 27, 2007
at 09:35 AM

Reminds me of the work of one Richard Buckminster Fuller.
on November 27, 2007
at 09:03 AM

Maxadolf..Thankz for commenting on my post tho I dont actually recall saying anything about glass. Anyways, the postulate was if one could construct an incompressible substance of great length then the far end should move simultaneously with the near end hence transferring energy faster than light. It was stated that no such substance exists. Doesnt it? How about coring out a singularity? Isnt it possible that within a singularity distance does not exist nor time therefore measuremnets of velocity become meaningless. I tend to think this is true and that these 'potential' beasties are interdimensional portals. I know, once again, old school. I just think its possible and even likely.
on November 27, 2007
at 05:49 AM

Aaron Butters
on November 27, 2007
at 12:58 AM

its a spirograph isnt it lol
Tin Finger
on November 26, 2007
at 11:18 PM

Thant design would look lovely on a handbag.
Julie, Essex.
on November 26, 2007
at 04:44 PM

" does not require more than one dimension of time and three of space..." "E8 encapsulates the symmetries of a geometric object that is 57-dimensional and is itself is 248-dimensional." So, it takes 248 dimensions to explain 57 dimensions that prove 4 dimensions? Clear as mud. I think this subject is going to require a writer of the caliber James Gleick, or John McPhee, to explain it to laymen like me.
on November 26, 2007
at 11:39 AM

It's the "Etch-a-Sketch" you guys are thinking of.
John Bull
on November 26, 2007
at 12:13 AM

We live in a vibrational universe that vibrates at a rate that coincides with what we know of your universe. As it will be proven that the big bang did not happen but instead we came to being by multiable dimensional frequency shift that is directly connected to human consciousness. this new theory may represent 248 interconnected dimensions that we travel throught do to our rise of our planetary and human vibrational shift that we are presently experiencing.
john settica
on November 25, 2007
at 08:52 PM

If the missing 20 particles have something to do with the forces of gravity, how would one capture gravity by use of the collider, surely these would be invisible so you would be looking for something that is not there. Gravity is not mass or a particle. What is gravity? If gravity is pulling something in, and it has other particles pulled in, it then equates to one mass, say the moon or earth. Therefore if one was to drill into the moons crust down to the very centre of the gravity source, what would one find? A gravity generator maybe or quantum singlarity? it depends how strong the force of gravity is to equal the size of mass. If Gravity is too great, say a black hole then the mass is basically crushed or implodes on itself increasing the gravity further more. How far does gravity propagate? is it infinite. our solar system orbits the sun, but our system orbits with other systems that make the galaxy and the galaxy orbits other galaxys then again orbit the universe. Does it stop th ere? probably not!. who knows it can easly go on indefinitely. I guess using a particle collider will create a big bang, although will it collapse as quickly as it was made or will it just keep growing till all the particles it can manifest cause it to stop growing? Is it possible to reverse creation of a singlarity, if that is what gravity is?
trevor johnson
on November 25, 2007
at 06:27 PM

I have had the basic cosmology figured out since 1970. Now I have finished some details. I don't know who or how to tell it. I am gettting very old and it will be lost unless I can tell someone soon. I have about 28000 words and a few illustrations in "COSMIC RAMBLINGS". My only claim to fame is that I was a charter member of Halifax, N. S, Astronomical Society about 1952. Cheers ET
on November 25, 2007
at 04:57 PM

Replyinghere to your absurd article on shortening the universe, since you did not have a comments link there. First, the universe hasnt lost 1/5 mass as you say to alarm us - only the calculatin has changed. Thats like weighing yourself on a broken scale then an accurate one and saying "Hey, I lost 10 lbs"! Also, you did not ppoint out that Schrodinger's cat was meant to demonstrate the absurdity of theory that ignores reality, which was confirmed by Einstein. Bad, Bad reporting! (scare tactics to get readers, shameful)
on November 25, 2007
at 03:10 PM

Re 2012: Find the surfer save the world
on November 25, 2007
at 02:27 PM

Symmetry is the one thing I keep seeing in water molecule "equilibrium" for folding proteins in the cytosol. We have a good tool here. Will try to use the math in this area.
Joseph F. Nowoslawski, M.D.
on November 25, 2007
at 03:32 AM

well there was a big bang or rather a big sound and it was this ...LET THERE BE LIGHT...and thats when all of this got started and you and i are never gonna be able to figure it out,the created cannot fathom the CREATOR or the CREATION :)
sean connor
on November 25, 2007
at 02:44 AM

Helen Keller said "The heresy of one age becomes the orthodoxy of the next." All praise to those individuals who have the courage to be creative, who don't shrink back under the glare of scrutiny and ridicule. All you mal-contents, go create, give, don't be scared, you're gonna die one day. It'll seem more important then.
Fraser Blyth
on November 24, 2007
at 11:20 PM

Unification theories all seem to require new particles to fill the gaps in mathematical models. The truth is that the transition from energy to matter and back is a continuum. The point on the continuum determines the properties of the matter/energy at that point. Until this is understood there will be an ever increasing number of newly "discovered"/conjectured sub atomic particles.
james parry
on November 24, 2007
at 10:51 PM

FLATUS ODOR JUDGE Odor judges are common in the research labs of mouthwash companies, where the halitosis-inflicted blow great gusts of breath in their faces to test product efficacy. But Minneapolis gastroenterologist Michael Levitt recently took the job to another level—or, rather, to the other end. Levitt paid two brave souls to indulge repeatedly in the odors of other people's farts. (Levitt refuses to divulge the remuneration, but it would seem safe to characterize it thusly: Not enough.) Sixteen healthy subjects volunteered to eat pinto beans and insert small plastic collection tubes into their anuses (worst-job runners-up, to be sure). After each "episode of flatulence," Levitt syringed the gas into a discrete container, rigorously maintaining fart integrity. The odor judges then sat down with at least 100 samples, opened the caps one at a time, and inhaled robustly. As their faces writhed in agony, they rated just how noxious the smell was. The samples were also chemically analyzed, and 1;eureka!—Levitt determined definitively the most malodorous component of the human flatus: hydrogen sulfide. DYSENTERY STOOL-SAMPLE ANALYZER In the early '80s, Virginia Tech profs Tracy Wilkins and David Lyerly studied the diarrhea-causing microbe Clostridium difficile in sample after sample after sample of loose stool from the disease's victims. They became such crack dysentery docs that they launched a company, Techlab, dedicated to making stool-analysis kits. Today, Techlab employs 40 people, 19 of whom spend their working hours opening sloppy stool canisters and analyzing their contents in order to test the effectiveness of the company's kits. You'd have to have a pretty good sense of humor, right? Well, fortunately, they do. The Techlab Web site sells T-shirts with cartoons on the front (two flies hover over two blobs of dung; one says to the other, "Pardon me, is this stool taken?") and the company motto on the back: "Techlab: #1 in the #2 Business!"
weird science
on November 24, 2007
at 04:21 PM

As there is no difference between the universe and our experience of it, it is consciousness that needs to be 'explained'. Once that has been done then everything else will be chicken feed. But it seems that most 'scientists' forget that there is a miracle going on, here, now, right in front of them. There is no reality outside of 'now'. 'now' IS consciousness, 'now' IS time, 'now' IS freewill, 'now' IS 'experience'................... isn't it?
Simon House
on November 24, 2007
at 03:09 PM

To ChaosControl: You've shown that you're not worthy of a PhD with such a demonstration of superficial reasoning. Have you never noticed the way in which fibreglass bends. For it to bend entails compression (and tensile stretching) of the molecular components of the glass. The same happens, but to a less obvious extent, with bulk glass. To argue a case for instant movement of matter based on the flawed non-compressibility premise is just plain nuts!
on November 24, 2007
at 03:09 PM

Could it be that if you continued to explore the smallest object Quantum will ever find, you may find yourself at the other end of the universe?
on November 24, 2007
at 02:55 PM

Nassim Haramein.
on November 24, 2007
at 03:59 AM

I wish people would use the correct term for this -- it is a Hypothesis, not a Theory. Hat's off to the guy for coming up with it, particularly because it has testable predictions. Whether it's true or not, he's pushing science forward (because even if it's proven false, we'll then know the reason why it's false and can come up with something better. Yay for the scientific method!) Shame on the media for treating this like it's a done deal. Don't get me wrong, the guy is a genius and this is exciting stuff, but until it's tested it's just another hypothesis. We've got tons of those. The fact that this one is particularly simple doesn't mean it's the front runner. Let's all calm down and wait a few years for test results before throwing a preemptive parade.
on November 24, 2007
at 01:40 AM

I can't believe that so many people (mostly young men?) have got time to plough through all these comments! I am an infrequent user of the web but was sent this article by my brother, The physics is potentially fascinating and the comments about Douglas Adams, Rush, Newton and Hildegarde of Bingen do show a wide range of expertise BUT where do you all get the time from? Don't you have relationships? Homes to run? Meals to prepare? Jobs to do? I shall follow the story via the scientific literature and hope he's onto something real.
on November 23, 2007
at 09:51 PM

What are you guys smoking?
on November 23, 2007
at 05:48 PM

Interesting ... but prove it. The theory may represent 248 interconnected dimensions but should find a better marketing scheme than a 248 point, 2 dimensional geometric design using most of a box of crayons. Isn't "Physics" the the physical study of science? Theoretical Physics is more than the theory of science, it is the organized religion of the study of theories of science. There are large numbers of very intelligent and knowledgable people studying theories, based upon theories, based upon probabilities which are based upon possibilities. Unfortunately, many of these devote their lives to pursuing validation for theories rather than pursuing knowledge. Many pursue realistic goals with tangible results. What remains is a large, self-serving machine using vast resources to support the faithful in hopes of theorems. There are victories. There are failures. It is too easy to devise a theory with missing parts, but based upon enough science and possibility to be permitted a lifetime of financial resources to TRY to prove it. The therory hopes to find validation in newly discovered particles from CERN Collider in France ... which will use billions of dollars and years of work to create the largest explosion ever conceived ... "theoretically" containing the equivalent of "The Big Bang". Theoretical Physics will become real at the point of impact. Someone better have something more tangible than faith or this theory will be found in another dimension with whatever is left of us.
Denis C
on November 23, 2007
at 04:14 PM

It is not entirely clear to me why one of the most prominent and leading avant-gardes of theoretical physics such as Professor Lee Smolin should hold the internet paper of Dr. Garrett Lisi in such high esteem. I thought that the fundamental importance of E8 exceptional Lie group in connection with unification and high energy physics was pointed out for the first time by Prof. M. Green known at DAMPT-Cambridge, England and Prof. J. Schwarz then at Caltech Pasadena in the USA, together with the true Einstein of mathematical physics Edward Witten at Princeton USA, who wrote the classical treatise on string theory showing in the body of their book as in various appendices, the prominent role played by the (2)(248) = 496 dimension of E8 E8 in finding a theory of everything. Therefore at least on this count nothing breathtaking has occurred. But maybe the great excitement is with regard to finding the standard model without invoking the string model but then here again, and referring to a communication posted to this website by M. Meyers on November 19, it seems that the nonlinear dynamics school of high energy physics have obtained essentially the same conclusion many, many years earlier. In this respect I just need to refer to the numerous papers by the Egyptian Mohamed Saladin El Naschie as well as the Slovenian L. Marek-Crnjac as well as the Italian G. Iovane. Most of these papers are published in a visible and leading Journal published by Elsevier entitled Chaos, Solitons & Fractals. It is also not true that Lisi’s theory is essentially four-dimensional. We do not know exactly what dimension means really beyond the 3 space and 1 time dimension, but E8 E8 needs many, many more so-called “dimensions”. At the end I can have only respect and admiration for a surfer with a Ph.D. who challenges conventional wisdom and also respect to Lee Smolin’s liberal attitude in giving people the benefit of the doubt. However, with the advent of the World Wide Web (www) and Google, ignorance of the literature cannot prevent criticism with regard to scientific priority and many fundamental papers which Lisi should have at a minimum referred to, are not mentioned. While at best Lisi’s work is a clever reformulation of previous works published in various international reputable journals. In fact using the Google search engine for exceptional Lie symmetry groups and high energy physics, these papers will appear instantly.
S. Traener

on November 23, 2007
at 03:34 PM

Man. This has been fun. So much more exciting than than reading blogs on sports or politics. Keeps the gray matter firing. Some of us dolts may even consider reading more about this stuff. And stand in awe at how mighty and grand His design was in the first place
on November 23, 2007
at 02:29 PM

Some commentaries mentioned the Spirograph. Actually, there is a connection between the Spirograph and a physical/astronomical theory. However, the theory is not this new E8-theory, but a rather ancient (and obsolete) one. The description of planetary motions in terms of epicycles. The midpoint of the inner wheel of a Spirograph traces a circle concentric to the outer wheel, while the pen or pencil in the tiny hole traces another circle around this moving midpoint. The resulting curve is quivalent to an orbit with just one epicycle, and a constant speed ratio. But no actual Geocentric orbits can be recreated in this way, nor can the Moon's Heliocentric orbit be approximated. This is because the ratio of the radii in a Spirograph is equal to the ratio of the speeds.
H. de Boer
on November 23, 2007
at 11:13 AM

Thnx for commenting on my post PGroot. I'm not a mathematician or physicist but heres what I tend to believe...Theres no such thing as anti-gravity...unless you accept that ALL forms of propulsion are forms of 'anti-gravity'. Anyway, I imagine that matter is condensed space and gravity is a warping of space around such a substance. I suppose thats pretty old school. I also do not beleve that the universe has a speed limit except to say that nothing can be 'measured' as going faster than light. But thats a limitation of our measuring devices.Finally I'm inclined to think that those ubiquitous 'saucers' harness inertial forces and not anti gravity. They can turn on a dime or stop and dart away and not experience 'G' forces due to this control of inertia. Best thing about these theories, no one can prove you wrong.
on November 23, 2007
at 08:56 AM

Thank you, for providing us with a link to Mr. Lisi's excellent paper. e8 = f4 + g2 + 26 x 7 and the surf's up!
Michael H 34
on November 22, 2007
at 10:07 PM

Somebody beat me to the spirograph comment but yep thats what it looks like somebody playin with a spirograph, see ya at the resturant at the end of the universe? I have my doubts about the big bang, that background radiation could be something else or remnants of little bangs that are not all encompassing but areas that crunch up and then blow apart without the entire universe being involved. Then again everything could be less than 10,000 years old LOL? At the whim of the Creator.
on November 22, 2007
at 05:44 PM

this geezer is good at drawing i must say
on November 22, 2007
at 01:34 PM

The article dated 17 th links to the spontenious statement by Shantilal Goradia on Nov 6, 07 in a conference at the University of Notre Dame. The statement linked the reciprocal of the fine-structure constant as the natural logarithm of the square root of the inverse of the cosmological constant 10E60 Planck lengths. With the help of the life science library staff and students, he also found some papers on genetic code he was looking for a long time. He talked in 2007 March, April and DNP meetings on DNA link.
on November 22, 2007
at 06:34 AM

God make this design to be simple - but highly confounding to the puny human mind in the first place...... It's strange how it looks extremely similar to the complex but perfectly constructed patterns found on a sunflower.....yep, that's just how God designed them - and the universe in the first place - devoid of the feeble complexities used of the human mind to fathom it all out. If you believe the truth of God's design, life is much simpler. It's all typically the same as trying to find a difficult way to make 2+2=4 !!
on November 22, 2007
at 01:16 AM

He's a UC San Diego graduate? Very cool. That totally explains it. My guess is that Lisi experienced, first hand, the zen of particle physics (surfing). And one thing led to another. I speculate that the only difference between Lisi, and the guys that hang at Hunting Beach Surf and Sport, is that Lisi wrote a paper. Everyone else just talks about it. Thumbs up, Lisi. Wedge Rat, Newport Beach, Cali
Wedge Rat
on November 22, 2007
at 12:23 AM

I am an engineer, not physicist, in the early 70 I wrote "Frontiers of Physics" where I got to my satisfaction the math unification with gravity, predicting what will happen in the next 35 years till today and after. Those equations are perfect, that is a math approach to unification, physic testing is what is happening in the labs everywhere. I can send the work by e-mail on request.
Sam Gueller
on November 21, 2007
at 11:36 PM

Interesting story: The 'gaps' draw a striking similarity to the discovery of the periodic table in chemistry. Mendeleev predicted the table - but it contained several gaps where Mendeleev predicted elements a yet to be discovered; Germanium, Gallium & Scandium were later discovered.
on November 21, 2007
at 10:21 PM

ChaosControl just proved that there is no such thing as incompressible matter. It can't be all protons anyway because like charges repel. A sphere of neutrons is possible.
on November 21, 2007
at 08:21 PM

Though I may be reading into his perspective; Lisi, like many other physicists, may be intimidated by String theory's incomprehensibility. Currently, we cannot understand String theory. As Dr. Witten says, “no one is smart enough.” Also, many of String theory’s critics have a, ‘that’s ridiculous’ kind of an attitude towards it because of how radical and unbelievable it is. We assume that there can’t possibly be 11 or 26 dimensions to the universe. Of course, what if there are? Depending upon how you look at it, it makes total sense that the universe would be as fantastic as String theory makes it seem and more! On the other hand, Lisi gives us another more conceivable option to observe and I doubt that hurts at all. -Charles Rey
Charles Rey
on November 21, 2007
at 07:27 PM

he thats my spirograph drawing which i made when i was 7 years old, where did he find it.... i knew it could be handy one day to keep it, still my dad threw it away....
on November 21, 2007
at 07:11 PM

Immigration is more important than knowledge
P Moor
on November 21, 2007
at 05:45 PM

At school I was told 'the Universe does not revolve around you Richard' I now live in London E8 - who's right now Mr. Harris?
on November 21, 2007
at 05:33 PM

"Imagination is more important than knowledge" - Albert Einstein. At last, an imaginative physicist and another of Einsteins theories proven!
on November 21, 2007
at 05:08 PM

248/8 = 31. 31 is the symbol of negation and negativity. You can't dumbdown the Arizal. You can't pick it all up in 2 paragraphs. But it's nice when someone's thinking.
on November 21, 2007
at 04:48 PM

If the current response to figuring it all out is ' holy crap' instead of 'eureka' then perhaps God is having a dirty joke.
G. Abriel
on November 21, 2007
at 04:45 PM

I have a theory it is the "string vest " theory that is ......blah .....blah..........waffle......jargonize.....jargonize...zzzzzz....
steve rainbow
on November 21, 2007
at 12:39 PM

My gran knitted something like this way back in the 1950's. She used it to stand her teapot on to avoid marking the varnished table top. Wasn't aware of my gran having a doctorate! I'm impressed.
on November 21, 2007
at 12:25 PM

I would love to say something clever but I am not smart enough. What does the theory of everything have to do with a tapestry-like drawing?? Beats me !! I have a sneaking feeling that the scientists are conning us with all these abstract, never-to-be-proven theories to earn themselves fancy PhDs.
on November 21, 2007
at 09:14 AM

Heres a question to ponder that I made up. It involves faster than light energy transfer.....Suppose you constructed a very long and very thin and very dense solid tube. Say it was 1000 miles long and just one millimeter thick. Suppose it was so dense, maybe made of pure protons or something,and so rigid that it couldnt be compressed or bent. The weight and inertial resistence of this object would be considerable but finite. Now...Move it. Hit one end of it with so much force that it moved. Obviously its in space...anyway...the far end should move simultaneously with the end struck.The energy transfer should be immediate from one end to the other. No compression wave no shock wave no tranfer from proton to proton because the material is noncompressable. Is that a word? eh. It is now. So NOW can I have my PHD?.....WHY NOT?!?
on November 21, 2007
at 08:00 AM

Obviously all the time he has been spending communing with nature has helped to open his mind to these astounding possiblities!
Holly S.
on November 21, 2007
at 01:56 AM

The question to the answer 42 is as follows: how many physicists does it take to come up with the answer to life, the universe and everything? 42. 41 to bicker, argue, calculate, postulate, experiment, publish, retract and remain generally confused in the University at the End of Time; one to ride a wave and, in a 'eureka' moment recognise the bleedin' obvious. I mean, holy crap, it ain't rocket science.
on November 21, 2007
at 12:44 AM

So the spirograph can only draw curved lines, eh? I thought a curved line was made up of an infinitely large number of infinitely short straight lines, which would, of course, be point infinities, or black holes. So is E8 actually what a block hole looks like? And is the spirograph the ultimate telescope back to the beginning of time, or even a time machine itself? Was it surreptitiously planted here by advanced alien life forms to give a species of bone-headed ape a bit of a clue, or just to entertain them until the universe recollapses or expands itself into oblivion. I think we should be told. Meanwhile, I'm going back to the beach to count particles of sand as I have a bit of a theory of my own.
Graham Houghton
on November 21, 2007
at 12:05 AM

I salute men like Lisi that have the guts to step off the edge. Whenever someone takes the time to reconcile Lisi with Nassim Haramein who understands the geometry of the universe and Ed Leedskalnin's Coral Castle Code (forces) which explains the energy of creation, we will have a theory of physics which will work much better that what we have now, which chooses to ignore that which does not fit. Both of these concepts by Leedskalnin and Haramein have been mentioned already in posts above. How many of you have looked at both? If you haven't, they will definitely give you a stretch. One has proof you can hold in your hand (if you can count to 64), and the other the source of unlimited energy used to singlehandedly move huge stones like an egyptian and to hold creation into form. From one who has survived the American Medical establishement, the number one cause of death in the USA. I have four physicians in my family. You don't have to be intelligent to practice medicine, you just have to be 'safe.' Maybe thats why they call it practice! I have no evidence that it is any different for physicists, and plenty that it is. Ask a physicist today how Leedskalnin could move six ton stones by himself, and they will just hand their head. Ask and engineer how the egyptians could cut stone to a greater accuracy than we can today even using lasers and machine tools, and they will just hang their head. Yet they get 'published.' To hell with published papers, science has fought every advanced thinker since day one. Haven't you had enough of this? Study and decide for yourself.
on November 20, 2007
at 11:57 PM

"In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth" Find Him, and you've got your answers....and then some.
Ralph Gaily
on November 20, 2007
at 09:30 PM

I dont think this man will remain poor for long....good for him. Refreshing to hear about achievement being made for the curiosity and love of it
on November 20, 2007
at 09:24 PM

Einstein is gone and the USA need another scientific 'hero'. Also Einstein was wrong and you'll find the proof in the web site below. Then go to Special Relativity and be sure to read the conclusions before you leave the site.
on November 20, 2007
at 08:56 PM

I am not worthy of weighing in on this discussion and have absolutely zero credentials with relation to said topic. I have no idea what 2012 means and don't care. I am however a true believer of the world according to me... My perspective relates to the fact that individual's have the ability to find or do great things, but group them together and they seem to miss the point. It takes real genius and an open mind to make new and important relative findings. Organized religion is an example I often use to point out our ignorance , so many religions all the same and yet all opposed to one another. They are just different schools of thought. Different GROUP settings. Equally irrelevant.... The point----he may be just a surfer but his individuality may be his genius. Whilst u sit in your group colluding to discredit, you are the problem.... Grab a beer or whatever u fancy, go have some alone time and consider the world according to you! Who knows you may have an epiphany...
on November 20, 2007
at 08:49 PM

An achievement made all the more impressive considering the shortage of intelligent life on earth. A theory of mine brilliantly proved by the posting here. See how they all react to pearls set before them.
Rodger Lemonde
on November 20, 2007
at 08:04 PM

Interesting, but far from conclusive, that's why we call it "theoretical physics". The theory of everything will eventually be linked with geometry. As far as including gravitons or any other gravity particle in the theory seems like a bit of a stretch and wishful thinking to me; It will include extra dimensions and new found particles however. I look forward to the collider in Geneva coming on line, particles, dimensions, black holes, molecular weight, dark matter, anti matter, dark energy, it is all becoming within reach.
on November 20, 2007
at 06:51 PM

The more we mess with things we need not know, the more we dwindle in things we should not know. For all things are God, and God is all things. I understand it is human nature to want to learn more, but we need to understand that there is no reason to know what is unknown. For we as humans can not completely and accurately predict the future. Blessings
Your Mom
on November 20, 2007
at 06:32 PM

I'm not wearing underpants.
Melvyn Femptypents
on November 20, 2007
at 05:04 PM

Can you please print the name of the one physicist that was stunned? I think he has been smoking a few too many Higgs Bosons.
on November 20, 2007
at 04:33 PM

The guy needs to speak to Tony Blair. Tony will fill in the gaps with pure spin, which after all is the essential thing about the universe. Tony, as always, got it right. Go Tony, go Tony!
Jorge DeManuella
on November 20, 2007
at 03:58 PM

I really can't see how a theory that appears to involve a grand total of 305 dimensions and calculations the size of Manhattan is simpler than a theory with impressive symmetry that only requires 11... Also, I thought that String theory could be proven if our computational abilities were more advanced. Ok now that I've said that, I've realized that the computations for String Theory would probably cover Manhattan and like five other boroughs. lol Meh. I guess I wait and see what the collider comes up with but I'm still a total believer in String Theory at the moment, although new ideas are always good to see and useful one way or another!
Carole s.
on November 20, 2007
at 02:34 PM

If I try hard enough, can't I draw that complex symbol on my Spirograph? The Spirograph then may hold the key to the Universe and I thought it was just a kids toy!
on November 20, 2007
at 02:32 PM

...I would suggest that anyone wanting to explore similar information,and more in laymans terms,might find Lynne McTaggart's "the Field..the quest for the secret force of the universe",a VERY interesting read.
Rick Maloof
on November 20, 2007
at 02:02 PM

It’s inevitable that the String Theory (that proposes particles are made up of minute strings) would be categorized as a complex catastrophe lined with flaws. Let us not judge this theory from the stands as so many did with Einstein. If we finally have a theory that can be proven with detailed experimentation then this should in-fact stand at the forefront of science, until proven otherwise. To the clown further up the page, if she weighs as much as a duck then she is not a witch...she is a duck. If she weighs the same, looks, feels and quack's like a duck….then she is a witch.
Dr Elgnarc Sunderland
on November 20, 2007
at 11:13 AM

Never was 47. We still need to find the question to the answer "42" though.
on November 20, 2007
at 10:37 AM

looks like a ripoff of Nassim Haramein's work
on November 20, 2007
at 09:11 AM

Even more than MRI imaging and more durable crystalline structures for building purposes, we are looking at being able to understand the intricate details of the sup-atomic and particle world. By developing a greater knowledge of these areas we can tap into energy resources that could be inevitably unlimited. Einstein theorized about ZPM (Zero Point Energy), which besides the far reaches of the physics theorems such as anti-gravity and other elaborate systems, ZPM's create energy and power from nearly stationary particles themselves. Since particles somehow regenerate their power to infinitesimal limits, these power sources could be an answer to our depleting resources crisis. Furthermore, the reaches of knowledge into the composition of dark matter and energy would allow us to possibly be able to manipulate space around our solar system to allow us to go far distances without losing time or energy. Even still, there exists the outside possibility that (whether you want believe or be skeptical, I simply approach with an open mind) if there are any other intelligent lifeforms that operate in different spectra of dimensions, the knowledge of higher dimensions may allow us to recognize patterned fluctuations as we scan the universe.
Ben E
on November 20, 2007
at 06:45 AM

So the answer wasn't 47 after all?
on November 20, 2007
at 06:13 AM

If you are interested in learning more about A. Garrett Lisi see:
on November 20, 2007
at 05:23 AM

Regarding the plagiarism "theory" postulated by someone, the article you linked to did have much of the same info as the Telegraph article, however, that article was dated Nov. 17, and the Telegraph article is dated Nov. 14th. Oddly, the second article seems to have much more information...
on November 20, 2007
at 05:18 AM

I get it. If she weighs as much as a duck, She is a witch!
on November 20, 2007
at 04:18 AM

Wonderfull...Test it, then test again. With luck, Occams Razor will turn string theory into lint, and then we can get on with finding real solutions to real problems.
on November 20, 2007
at 03:59 AM

I just added another outer sphere with lines to E8, I call it E9! I am a genius!
Erik Boom
on November 20, 2007
at 02:46 AM

As a retired lori(truck) driver I was startled by the theory! As I read the article, I started to feel sleepy and began to nod off. Don't know why this was but I couldn't help it. Upon examining the diagram,with increasing magnitude on my computer, one can see secret mysterious symbols in a strang language at collection points/intersections. Furthermore strange impulses danced in my brain causing a burst of neuron-synaptic surges. Ideas exploded, answers fell into place, relief filled the void. Taking out my credit card bills and credit cards; I exposed them to the artists wheel. My credit line was increased, debts canceled, job offers came by the dozens. My profile at the various dating services filled with amorous admirers, and the lottery tickets changed into winners. Now, I also have a nice bridge I would like to sell in Brooklyn. Get Toll income potential. Call back later I'm surfing for lolli-pops.
Dennis in Orlando
on November 20, 2007
at 02:21 AM

The super-symmetry of The Star of David?
on November 19, 2007
at 11:50 PM

Hmm. That E8 diagram has a line missing.
on November 19, 2007
at 11:35 PM

Do not argue with each other. Just be patient for one more month to see the final result of Gravity Probe B. If General Relativity is not proved by any physical experiment then String and E8 etc. are just math not reality!!
Jin He
on November 19, 2007
at 10:13 PM

I believe another piece that should maybe be examined is are "frequencies." Frequencies that some how all operate in concert with there own various equal but opposite frequencies. Each able to shift or operate on various frequencies as a whole, but none losing the relationship to the whole. Just a thought.
on November 19, 2007
at 09:51 PM

As the Irishman said, and this is no joke, if you want to know the Theory of Everything I wouldn't start from here. Our Physicists have been banging the drum about Particles for years now. Why has Wave Mechanics been neglected. Is it Political? University versus University, because, if it is, then the world will be ending before the answer is found. I suggest the new theory is respected, not the least because it may get us out of the clutches of the Particle-philes. Before any number of Big Bangs there was no matter. An event of such magnitude would have represented a rapidly changing wave front, from inf. positive to inf. negative in zero time. Or near enough as not to matter. Fourier analysis would then give the reason for any amount of 'Matter waves' to be produced. Don't just object!!! Look at Radar wave guides as to the production of rotational waves, possibly spherical or barrel shaped waves. Look at Aether theory again. Light is refracted around the Sun. Mass is 'attracted' by 'Gravity' to the sun. Gravity would be the refraction of the matter wave by the Sun's 'mass'. In other words mass does not 'attract' mass by 'Gravity'. The apparent attraction is due to the slowing down of those parts of the 'matter wave' nearest to the other's mass. Refraction, no direct pull as such. Other references:- Ball lightning, superconductivity, where the particles pass through as waves in a wave guide, Inertia, where movement of a 'particle' would force part of the matter wave to exceed the speed of light and another part to drop below the speed of light. Since this would not be possible, then the wave would distort it's path and absorb energy during the acceleration.Momentum, just the reverse, energy released on decceleration. Take it or leave it. I'm going back to building my Electronic Organ which uses Fourier analysis to generate tones from square or triangular waves.
on November 19, 2007
at 09:34 PM

My god...all but twenty fit. I need sleep. Dr. Lisi keep surfing...keep surfing.
on November 19, 2007
at 08:32 PM

Surfer DUDE? - please don't degrade this man who is probably smarter than you'll ever be - have the courtesy to at least give this man some respect for his fantastic discovery and call him by what he is, a doctor.
on November 19, 2007
at 07:38 PM

way cool, dude!
missy- BRLA
on November 19, 2007
at 07:07 PM

Great. One wonders how many new types of bombs (or bombas, as Inspector Clouseau would say), will be crafted using this new theoretical finding. We shall await with fingers firmly implanted in our ears. On the upside, I suppose such activities will render the world safe for our precious bodily fluids. Double-plus good, nyet?
Walt OBrien
on November 19, 2007
at 07:06 PM

Regarding the references to the Spirograph toy, it made designs by drawing curved lines. This E8 representation and other String Arts are comprised only of straight lines, and the curves you think you see are optical illusions. See Everything is an illusion.
John Eichinger
on November 19, 2007
at 06:19 PM

looks like a ripoff of Nassim Haramein's work... docid=4907540922643918266&q=Crossing+the +Event +Horizon&total=24&start=0&num=10&so=0&type =search&plindex=1
on November 19, 2007
at 06:09 PM

"Alma," posting at 3:05 PM somewhat hypocritically advises objectivity with "Thing is to question the establishment all the time"... and then immediately resorts to total subjectivity; exposing her own religious indoctrination! Try taking your own advice, line-follower!
on November 19, 2007
at 06:04 PM

Point: The 248/57 "dimensions" are not spatial/temporal, as commonly understood, thus the model may be confined to the usual 3+1 in that respect. Question: Assuming the theoretical completion and experimental confirmation of this mere particle taxonomy, what, if anything, would be its further implication?
Michael Laurence
on November 19, 2007
at 05:06 PM

Whatever all you folks are smoking - please send me some!
on November 19, 2007
at 04:55 PM

I note that many people are asking how does this sort of theory affect their daily lives. Well, it already does! It is needed to understand how the MRI imaging machines (in worldwide commomplace use in every major hospital)work and can be improved so as to help save lives and restore the health of others, see where the principles of MRI imaging are explained. Furthermore this type of image signal processing not only allows doctors and researchers to see the human brain in action in real time, but descibes in theory our group is convinced how it actually processes the imagery input by the eyes,in a way that enables it to understand what this imagery actually means. Peter Marcer.
peter marcer
on November 19, 2007
at 04:44 PM

E8? Yes that'l work: my mum knitted me a hat just like that, and it really kept my head warm.
David Cooper
on November 19, 2007
at 04:23 PM

There is no doubt that Dr. Lisi is an exceptionally gifted man, a natural talent, so to speak for theoretical physics. However, and in all honesty and frankness he is exceptionally ignorant on the literature on the subject. He has overlooked a large body of literature which has been published in various international journals showing for the first time the definite connection between three fundamental subjects namely, exceptional Lie symmetry group particularly second, coexter polytops, third nonlinear dynamics and fractals. By melting all these three subjects together a comprehensible answer for some of the most burning questions in high energy physics were resolved with unheard of simplicity. Many of these papers are published in a journal devoted primarily to nonlinear dynamics, such as Chaos, Solitons and Fractals published by Elsevier as well as international journals of nonlinear sciences and numerical simulations published by Freund. As far as we are aware, the first one to point out these intriguing connections between exceptional Lie groups hierarchies, coexter polytops, fractal dynamics and high energy physics is Professor M. S. El Naschie who is pretty much like yourself a non-mainstream scientist trained originally as a mechanical engineer and who turned later on to become a physicist. Related work has been done by Ji-Huan He in China as well as L. Crnjac in Slovenia. It is important to notice that El Naschie connected his work to a so-called fuzzy Kähler manifold. Some of these papers were chosen by Thomson Science as the most cited in the field and if you wish you can find them in Google and you can connect to them easily. At a minimum you should have given these fundamental papers published regularly over the last ten years in International Journals. In fact rather than everyone trying to work everything on his own, he should have joined forces with likewise minded people. His work and the work of the nonlinear dynamics community shows one clear thing, namely it is time to take non- linear dynamics seriously. I hope these remarks are beneficial for the further development of his highly interesting ideas.
Maurice Meyers

on November 19, 2007
at 04:04 PM

Amazing the rather savage pack of non-performers that gather about a piece of fresh meat.
on November 19, 2007
at 03:36 PM

This will be proven and will also lead to time travel which at this point the information will be proven false and the technology will be taken underground away from from all the people who could benefit from it the most.
on November 19, 2007
at 03:32 PM

Once again, we have another "Theory of Everything", that builds upon the clooged quantum theory of point particles, being put forth. There are physical theories, such as those put forth by Mills and Bergman, that explain the sub-ground states of Hydrogen and many other molecular phenomena, while avoiding inconsistencies and fudge factors. However, these theories question the Ptomelic Quantum and Relativistic theories, and so must never be considered by the very well tenured Physics establishment. Consider that String Theory has received billions of dollars in research funding, is the only path for wanna be theoretical physicists these daze, and still has no experimental results or even field equations to speak of, and it is easy to see that physics only wants idiotic unsolvable problems to work upon. What a scam!
on November 19, 2007
at 02:18 PM

firswt comment - why should the E8 diagram be a 30 Point fully-connected diagram (with multiple repeats of which some are offset 18 degrees). A diagram of such simplicity does not 'feel' beautiful in the way that many (but not all) mathematical and physical statements do. 2nd comment - I have yet to see comment on the theory and its predictions and possible proof via experiment from any physicists or mathematicians. 3rd comment - I wait with bated breath for the no-doubt frenzied approval from the Mandala enthusiasts and their like.
John King
on November 19, 2007
at 12:38 PM

Yokels... The Epiphany is: Change perception, change Reality. Lisi's breakthrough is nothing more or less than vectoring on Euclidian Geometry. ie. Time dictates relative position & understanding. Works great when you can nail it for the nuts and bolts group, fails miserably for the gedankenists. Yeah, I see it.... I also see... oops your theory just fell apart.
on November 19, 2007
at 12:24 PM

Well, well! Looks like the Censors of the Preprint Archive took fright when they realised that the paper that they'd kicked into touch (as per my previous posting) might be rather important, and have restored it to the hep-th section of the archive. It seems, actually, that this paper is rather similar to papers that they previously banned totally. In case no one has mentioned this already (sorry if I duplicate this), New Scientist has posted a nice video illustrating the theory, at
Prof. Brian Josephson
on November 19, 2007
at 11:15 AM

An even simpler theory is already just published in a major book by World Scientific 'Zero to Infinity', based only on zero, where the results of E8 that are valid are encompassed already. But, if you assume E8 is fundamental, then your theory isn't simple at all, and you get a lot of extraneous stuff which you don't want, as with octonions. These theories will produce some correct results because they incorporate some of the simpler ideas from the book as part of their overall structure. An article on the Dirac code on which the book is based by Peter Rowlands of Liverpool Univeesity can be found at Incidentally, Roger Highfield's book on time with collaborator, Peter Coveney is quoted on p. 46. More details at the URL below Peter Marcer,
Peter Marcer
on November 19, 2007
at 10:50 AM

quite frankly, who cares? I mean, really, ladies and gents - what bit of difference will this make in most of our lives? The answer - noen at all.
on November 19, 2007
at 10:20 AM

All very good folks, but can anyone give me a practical use for the theory?
on November 19, 2007
at 08:04 AM

The four forces of the universe. Strong force..Nuclear explosion. Weak force...Atomic decay. Electromagnetic...Light, electricity, microwaves, ultaviolet, magnetism, radio etc... Gravity...NOBODY has explained this one yet. What about kinetic? I clap my hands and you hear it across the room ie vibrating come this force doesnt count? Its the most common force of all. Too simple maybe? Anyway, the first three forces radiate out from their source. Gravity, energy converted to a stable mass state, pulls or attracts to the source. There. Explained. Can I have my PHD now? Please?
on November 19, 2007
at 07:00 AM

Lisi's theory can be found at I know that several very bright physicists were also looking for this unifying math principle that Lisi found. The E8 structure (that I know nothing about) is a mathematical consistancy (no contradictions) to Lisi's theory, so it is at least a formally correct physics theory. Next, it predicts new phenomena, it is testable, therefore it is a physics theory. I wonder how well Lisi's theory connects to the known experimental physics and verified standard theory. He definitely understands the theoretical physics lingo, and although he qualifies his work as "simple", it is not simple at all, but seems to make a new connection (superstructure) between these aspects of physics theory that are hard to unify by 1 theory (standard model and GT). Now Lisi should try to prove himself wrong: maybe his theory leads to absurd physics, maybe not. Right now it is still a brilliant speculation.
on November 19, 2007
at 06:35 AM

I had a "SPIROGRAPH" toy as a kid too...but it won't explain the universe...nope...
on November 19, 2007
at 06:26 AM

There is no smallest particle. There is no largest organization of matter. The universe extends to infinity both downward and upward in groupings of matter. The larger the scale, the more time appears to slow. The smaller the grouping, the faster time seems to pass. Imagine if the entire visible universe is only a single point similar to the period at the end of a sentence. That period is within a book containing many periods. That book is within a library. Other libraries exist a few miles from that library, etc. This progresses infinitely. Our galaxy is just one snoflake in an infinite snowstorm. Gravity is not a byproduct of mass, but of energy. Infinite universe, infinite mass, infinite energy. A singularity is impossible because it contradicts the concept of infinity. If there was ever a big bang, it was localized, and there were and currrently are many big bangs taking place in an infinite universe. Want more hints, write to me, but keep my e-mail confidential. T/Y.
on November 19, 2007
at 06:22 AM

Yes, please, anything but String (non) Theory!!!
Tom Hoffelder
on November 19, 2007
at 05:46 AM

Jeff Spicoli: What Jefferson was saying was, Hey! You know, we left this England place 'cause it was bogus; so if we don't get some cool rules ourselves - pronto - we'll just be bogus too! Get it?
jeff S
on November 19, 2007
at 05:43 AM

Crick was under the influnce on psychedelics when he discovered the double helix nature of DNA.
on November 19, 2007
at 04:37 AM

I'm sorry that I was in such a hurry that I didn't have time to read the entire article...However I wonder what Steven Hawking is deriving of of the surfers hypothis....?
Calvin Saylor
on November 19, 2007
at 04:35 AM

A surfer should not be bald.
Roger AC Williams
on November 19, 2007
at 04:33 AM

Consider this unusual fact, as someone who wishes to defeat Einstein math and string theory, I sadly must say this: The number of potential outcomes inside E8 is of such a magnitude that there is of course a way to find everything you want to see. Just like given that I am into a unique line of binary compression/encryption research I can find any possible outcome from the bible to predict numerous pre-existing events, and some 'future' events that may/may not happen (I could predict a market crash, give it a 7 year window and have an 80% accuracy rate at minimum for instance, and predict there will be a new war in the world, predict this, predict that.. I could twist it even to suit my form of politics, and sadly I could expect half to come true statistically if I was careful... leading to years of speculation of my abilities as a prophet) IF all his predictions come true, then I am going to say "Ok I was wrong to critique him"
Michael Harrington
on November 19, 2007
at 03:34 AM

It isn't at all surprising that this theory comes from the mind of one man or that he isn't associated with a college or university.
on November 19, 2007
at 03:09 AM

It's my observation that time doesn't exist. Look at it this way. Time implies a beginning. What if time didn't exist. That eliminates the burden of trying to find out where everything came from. It all just IS, right now. The past does not exist. The future does not exist. There is just NOW. No time, nothing but now. We invented time because we observed that living organisms lasted only so many cycles of the planet around the star that's at the center of our solar system. We as living organisms all had a beginning and we remember nothing before that beginning. So we anthropomorphize the universe based on our own limited existence. God always was and always is? God just might be the universe,,, and each of us,,, briefly. And the universe always was and always is. No turtles,, or elephants.
Andy Woitowicz
on November 19, 2007
at 02:17 AM

Someone ought to give this man a job with few responsibilities and plenty of freedom to do as he wishes, and then sit back and see what he accomplishes. Had I the money I would.
Jerry Strain
on November 19, 2007
at 02:14 AM

Poor guy, It's clearly too much surfing... There is no gravity and Mark McCatcheon has proved it in his Final Theory last year among other important implications.
on November 19, 2007
at 01:44 AM

See that lttle green dot a few degrees east of north and about 15% of the way...hmmm is it 'up' or is it 'in'? Well that's me.... and that little orange dot is my board!
murray walding
on November 19, 2007
at 01:10 AM

I have found the long searched unified theory of physics. It is based on simple and understandable observations and experiments and derived by relevant mathematics. It solves all the problems and misinterpretations in the modern physics. google by -- theory physics -- and look at the first hit of ca 150 millions.
Ingvar Astrand
on November 19, 2007
at 01:09 AM

I thought the New World understood that mystical, transcendental and ecstatic experiences were the domain of MacDonalds!
on November 18, 2007
at 10:32 PM

The secret is the standing wave.
on November 18, 2007
at 08:37 PM

ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ = Yadda yadda yadda In the beginning was the weird... So, what was THE question? Why E8? For tea too Eat me! Drink me! ...and be merry! What the séance of science transcends is this. There is no known UNIverse, OUT there, so to peak. It's all OMNIverse, as in EUREKA, notwithstanding on those shoulders of giants like EAP! Dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before...or ever after, heavenly foreclosure, divine laughter. g! nanos gigantium humeris insidentes Which could only mean that even, oddly speaking, Time Bandits need to eat and drink, no matter how small you are. To say the least! Beyond a shadow of a mouse! d8>D out! Vision is greater than Doubt! Why? Be Cause! Eureka! E8 my bread. Merry drank my tea.
on November 18, 2007
at 08:08 PM

I don't get how anyone's supposed to take seriously this "2012" BS - this is an article on science, not voodoo or mumbojumbo. Please offer proof that 2012 will be anything but an ordinary year before you start posting inane babble. Thank you
Mark Kregel
on November 18, 2007
at 07:49 PM

i would also like to add that black-holes have an eye just like a cyclone/ this eye you would be able to travel into and out of the black hole because gravity and any other related effects would be zero....
doc mcconnell
on November 18, 2007
at 07:15 PM

I'm reminded of all the symbology in Buddhism, as well as North American Native religions that symbolize the world in this manner. Interesting stuff, especially if you look at the Universe as a Multiverse and causality as being: Future= Infinite probabilities as a wave function Present= Supercollapse of the wave function to a probability path.
Tom Stormcrowe
on November 18, 2007
at 06:41 PM

if his work helps us to get FUSSION atomic power to make huge power stations for electric power and de-salinate sea water , he will be as great as einstein.
max bernstein
on November 18, 2007
at 04:27 PM

Reminds of the morning after a heavy party, when I climbed a stepladder to read the answer to the `meaning of life' (written on the ceiling by a partygoer pal at two am.), to collapse laughing. Why the hilarity? Well, he'd written the word `bannana'.
Ted Knight
on November 18, 2007
at 03:08 PM

"There often seems to be a deep connection between mystical experience and scientific discovery." What better reason to outlaw mind enhancing chemical agents, natural or synthetic. Do you honestly believe it is out of concern for your safty and well being? I seriously doubt the concept of "government" will carry much weight after the discovery of a working TOE. The surfing doctor and other renegades are the ones who will enlighten the world. When it comes to hero's, renegades are mine!
Lane Thair
on November 18, 2007
at 03:07 PM

Lisi's only article published in a refereed journal is from 1994, where he was a co-author. All the others are published at arXiv. Another kind of ToE: Wolfram's A New Kind of Science. For anyone impressed by credentials, Wolfram's are considerably more impressive than Lisi's. Reviews of NKS: So which is right? NKS or e8-based ToE, or neither?
on November 18, 2007
at 12:25 PM

Utter cobblers. 42 is all we need to know. A solution of such elegance that it is only eclipsed by the Lichtenberg (square root of two) aspect ratio.
Ford Prefect
on November 18, 2007
at 11:15 AM

The attempt to define all mystical, transcendental and ecstatic experiences that do not fit in with the categories of conscensus reality, as psychotic, is conceptually limiting and comes from a timidity which is not seemly for the honest, open-minded explorer.
Roger McKay
on November 18, 2007
at 11:11 AM

I think the introduction to the paper gives it away already: "We exist in a universe described by mathematics" ....... "The mathematics of the universe should be beautiful". This seems to be just another case of mathematical mysticism and should not qualify as rational science (even it appears to reproduce certain aspects of reality). The scheme suggested reminds me vaguely of astrological models and Kepler's attempt to explain the solar system in terms of regular polyhedra (see , ) and we all know what the scientific status of this is nowadays. Mathematics should be a tool, not an end in itself. Thomas
Thomas Smid
on November 18, 2007
at 10:36 AM

Seems to be a lot of unpublished wannabes's on this blog. Sorry, must confess i started reading the posts then got carried away. couldnt stop as it got so bad it was a sort of morbid interest multiplier. So pretentious of so many people to discuss the meaning of it all. We really will never ever know so relax and have a beer.
Richard Gibson
on November 18, 2007
at 07:09 AM

a pretty picture does not a unified theory make. i'm sure he trumps all the academics at their desks while he ponders the universe from his surfboard. what a bunch of hooey.
on November 18, 2007
at 06:50 AM

This will ultimately be figured out in the year 2012, and then the rebirth of humanity's minds will begin and the world will start on it's way to enlightenment.
on November 18, 2007
at 06:07 AM

Come on Chaps! What is the date on his Thesis? 1st April?
on November 18, 2007
at 05:39 AM

I have many gross of string theory tee-shirts for sale. After seeing E8, I'm willing to sell at any price. I'm also selling off all of my real estate in other dimensions, as this theory will render them non-existent. I kept telling my string theory accountant that I was worried about gravity, but he wouldn't listen.
John Clark
on November 18, 2007
at 05:09 AM

Wow! So many questions though... Forgive my naivitee, since I come from a humanities/social science background (although I do take a great interest in science): Does E8 assume a Newtonian universe, or is there still room for chaos and complexity theory? Is there any relationship between E8 and the Mandelbrot Set?
Marco Hewitt
on November 18, 2007
at 04:36 AM

Appears thinly typed. At best a visual matrix for showing interaction of particles without the attendant physical processes and relative environments where such interactions occur. Wouldn't particle interaction be different at blackholes? Or in supermassive events? What of the peripheries of the universe and its laws there? The model in my view appears a fantastic sliding puzzle of parallel inquiries. It does not equate unification.
on November 18, 2007
at 01:29 AM

all matter in this universe is the result of a hole made by the big bang , just as oil and washing up liquid dont mix so the matter and anti matter in this universe dont mix..gravity is the anti matter pushing the matter together in to spheres from the outside and not gravity from within..
doc mcconnell
on November 17, 2007
at 11:08 PM

I've also actually *seen* something similar to the E8 pattern when under the influence. This pattern seems to be everywhere and make up everything (man)
Magic Mushrooms
on November 17, 2007
at 10:16 PM

A disaster, if true. Soon we will have the GU Bomb based on Lisi's Grand Unified Theory.
on November 17, 2007
at 10:05 PM

It is refreshing to see that there are some people out there who are THINKING. It would not matter if he is correct or not, but he is thinking in peaceful terms. I hope that those who are determined to destroy the world will not be successful before this man's theory is found right or wrong. W.
Walter Weidner
on November 17, 2007
at 09:28 PM

OK guys, print the illustrations in the abstract Lisi wrote, stack and spin.You get E8. Sorry, I am visual. It's got to be simple to be understood.
on November 17, 2007
at 07:45 PM

Think about how wonderful it is that this pattern was created by an explosion......
Mark Bishop
on November 17, 2007
at 06:54 PM

A ToE will never be complete without formalising a framework within which consciousness can be described. Even so-called spiritualists, ever at loggerheads with the scientific community, recklessly bandy about words like 'mysticism' and 'cosmic spirit' without realising the potency and significance of consciousness within the scientific approach. While E8 may manifest itself in nature in much the same way that fractals do (by the way does anyone know whether E8 is a fractal in itself?) and may provide the answer to the 'physical' theory of everything, it will never be able to provide a complete picture of the interrelatedness of things, the web of relations that binds us all beyond our spatial and temporal confines.
on November 17, 2007
at 05:20 PM

It's amazing to know that matter has evolved to a stage whereby it can observe itself.
on November 17, 2007
at 05:18 PM

The TOE is the Mother of all puns! E8 too! Get it? Burp! The Ultimate Answer Some time ago a group of hyper-intelligent pan dimensional beings decided to finally answer the great question of Life, The Universe and Everything. To this end they built an incredibly powerful computer, Deep Thought. After the great computer programme had run (a very quick seven and a half million years) the answer was announced. The Ultimate answer to Life, the Universe and Everything is... (You're not going to like it...) Is... 42 Which suggests that what you really need to know is 'What was the Question?'. For tea too. d8>Dø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ It's teacups all the way up! Or is that down?
on November 17, 2007
at 05:14 PM

This is very cool ! surfing does pay lol
on November 17, 2007
at 04:38 PM

I think its easy to see why this 'dude' has been able to come up with what he has - he lives in & is in 'tune' with the REAL world as in nature and the universe that is 'there'. All the other scientists are living in the humanly artifical enviroment of social and political oriented universities and labs etc. How can one 'see' the universe when you are in a cubicle?
Jain Daugh
on November 17, 2007
at 04:06 PM

Garret, You have found a beautiful thing. It seems closer to correct than any idea that I have encountered in that there is not physical construct required to hold forces in place via a minimal energy state. I'm a fellow traveler who has been trying for years to see such a path forward. I salute you and ask that you not become discouraged. There are never 4 people on earth at the same time that can see what you see. Expect chaff. Carry on.
Derek Neely
on November 17, 2007
at 03:58 PM

And? Whether it's true or not, it changes nothing so who cares? Its the same with Stephen Hawking The Bookseller: this is entertainment science, in the latter's case of a dubious nature that his peers have acknowledged. Can see it now, "A Theory of Everything", only £12.99 from WH Smiths, just in time for Christmas. Yawn.
on November 17, 2007
at 03:57 PM

Could it be that someone else came up with all this stuff even earlier? I'm talking about the inventor of the Spirograph...anyone remember that from about 40+ years ago? The E8 diagram reminds me of those complex patterns I used to draw as a child using the cogged plastic discs and coloured pens!
Steve Dale
on November 17, 2007
at 03:49 PM

short follow-up...time IS the filter.
carl henthorn
on November 17, 2007
at 03:06 PM

Surfer Dude's theory is more amazing still, given the years of self-isolation from academia and its disciplines and from his peers in the scientific community. Garrett Lisi should be trapped and have his head examined. M.L.K. of L.A.
on November 17, 2007
at 03:05 PM

all things possible is the true...KEY
carl henthorn
on November 17, 2007
at 03:03 PM

Will this mean that my bins will go back to being collected weekly?
Lawrence Sinclair
on November 17, 2007
at 02:36 PM

Shame on all of us if we let such a person with beautiful, intelligent mind and seemingly peaceful yet individualistic demeanor who's only [sic] contribution is a major discovery giving the world a better understanding of the universe (his theories right or wrong) and making life richer for humanity while mindless jocks taking and giving concussions all on their way to Alzheimers are millionaries. Go figure! Maybe this aspect of the universe can't be described by the elegant E8 but it is the way of the universe just the same. Hopefully it is not an inherent, static aspect. My best wishes for you Garret Lisi!! You deserve better.
Joel Shapiro
on November 17, 2007
at 01:25 PM

I have my own theory about the universe called Atomic Level Theory. Life on earth and earth itself is made up of atoms. Each with a nucleus and electrons whizzing round it in orbit. The solar system is a gigantic atom and there are many such 'atoms' making up the universe. Indeed, I believe the universe itself is a mere atom in a much larger system - the next level. It could be that current technology does not allow us to see it but that aside, I believe it is because it is so huge that we cannot actually see (detect)it. Yet. To put that proposition into perspective, at a lower level, imagine being an ant on the back of an elephant. Can you, Mr Ant, see who is taking you for a walk in the jungle? Take it down levels to the single cell amoeba level. Now, can the amoeba see the ant? That's the idea except, in this case, earth is the amoeba. How was the universe created? I don't know, nobody knows but many have theories, of course.
Terry Harris
on November 17, 2007
at 12:14 PM

regarding time: time is duration of material change that run into space. With clock we measure duration and numerical order of material change that run into space only and not into time. Space-time is a math model only and not physical reality. The "fabric" of the universe is space that is a-temporal (time does not run into space as a fourth coordinate). We live in space only and not into tme. Time is duration of our life into spce.
amrit sorli
on November 17, 2007
at 08:21 AM

The coolest part of this story is that I am a country boy living in Suffolk, UK with kids around my ankles getting ready to go to soccer and you trip over such a story with so much passion attached to it. As a supreme layman, I congratulate this chap because it seems to me that he uses his own loaf (brain for you Yanks) and that is something we don't often think of when one considers the USA at the moment (1600 Pennsilvania Av.) Well done my son as we say over here
Under 7 Rugby Coach
on November 17, 2007
at 08:17 AM

Someone who understands this theory, please look at Tony Smith's theory. He used E8 plus a lot more for his TOE at least 6 years ago.
Mark Speckman
on November 17, 2007
at 07:55 AM

Nils Stalbrand says: You see, “but it is gravity, that is nothing new”. Yet even today we still cannot understand gravity. We can describe, measure, but what it it? It's called EROS. And it's NOT a metaphor. ;)
on November 17, 2007
at 06:48 AM

The E8 matrix looks like the Mayan Calendar.
Mike Adams
on November 17, 2007
at 05:38 AM

These comments are a testament to the state of the world's lack of intelligence. I would guess that suggesting to study even some elementary science is out of the question! God help us!!
John Coleman
on November 17, 2007
at 05:17 AM

Having taken a cursory read through the paper, and understanding enough of it to see his general aim if not (yet) the nitty gritty of the math... Meh. Looks like a particle physicist's take on a ToE to me. The bit about reproducing the gravitational action was interesting (to me, at least; but, then again, I'm a Relativist, so of course that's the bit that intrigued me). Probably an idea worth a look, but nothing (yet) worth getting excited about. At least it's testable, which puts it a step above string theory.
on November 17, 2007
at 04:55 AM

Roger Highfield is evidently a US citizen, since he uses Manhattan as an example of size. Could he not find somethin of the same area in Britain.
John Orford
on November 17, 2007
at 04:43 AM

Try this theory out for size, the universe is actually a glass globe about 10 feet in diameter. You and I my friends are only tiny molecules of the whole of existence, and the creator, the real God, is the top scientist in his dimension who runs the grand experiment. Looking down on you right now with his version of a scanning electron microscope, He gives a wink to His colleagues and enjoys a good laugh at the feeble attempts to explain...HA HA are nothing but a tiny molecule on the pimple of existence. But take solace in the fact that God considers each and every one of the "human" molecules the most important sentient forms in the existence we call the universe. After all, you are created in His image, but only on a much smaller scale.
on November 17, 2007
at 04:27 AM

I can attest to the earlier comment "There often seems to be a deep connection between mystical experience and scientific discovery." Strange as it may seem to some, this (E8 graph) is what the center of the universe looked like to me when I once died and went to source. It still seems so clear to me and I've not seen anything else that so closely represents what I saw. When I saw it I had no doubt that this is a very good model of the universe (theory of everything)
on November 17, 2007
at 04:27 AM

It is obvious some people do not understand or appreciate creative genius. What I do not understand is why the universities are not paying this scientist a handsome stipend...and who cares how much he surfs or where he lives. Shame on the SYSTEM for not supporting this man's life's work. By the way, he paid his dues, he has a PhD silly people. He is into it!
on November 17, 2007
at 03:13 AM

Wow. Pretty neat stuff.
David Mackey
on November 17, 2007
at 02:57 AM

Amazing. I first met this guy a few years ago. My dad happened to be in his high school class, and during their reunion a few years ago, he came to visit. We talked about his theory (yes, I am under 15), but it was nowwhere near as developed as it is now! Great job Garret!
on November 17, 2007
at 02:13 AM

Explains the vibration of string theory with the intertwined gravity... Very astounding... Go forth and change the world... Traditional education and concepts are stupid.
on November 17, 2007
at 02:02 AM

Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle anyone?
David Goldberg
on November 17, 2007
at 01:43 AM

kinda like "moment-of-truth"! i am curious about how much this can explain "creation". if not, this needs to be Dr. Lisi's next project :) and our fingers are crossed!
on November 17, 2007
at 01:04 AM

Expect Spirograph sales to sky rocket...
Niffers Dad Kewlaatu
on November 17, 2007
at 12:55 AM

I think that this guy sounds brilliant. I believe that he will be able to full clarify his discovery once it has his research has matured. Then the scientific community will accept him and his theory.
David Flowers
on November 17, 2007
at 12:28 AM

Hello, Well I have to say that is an amazing picture of the universe. However I drew pretty much the same picture in 1965 with my spirograph. Buckaroo Banzai
on November 17, 2007
at 12:27 AM

I was just waiting for the words psychodelic and LSD etc. to appear along with spirographing surfers and the strangeness of theoretical physics. But how many of the hippy chatters know the Lie algebras as well as mister Lisi does.
Len Smith
on November 16, 2007
at 11:46 PM

I would love for this theory to be correct. Then three quotes that sum up several of the most important scientific achievements would be: "Eureka!" "That's one small step for man..." and the grand-daddy of them all... "Holy crap, that's it!"
on November 16, 2007
at 10:58 PM

Didn't Leedskalnin use magnetic energy to levitate his stones? I believe he had some crude, albeit useful homemade contraption rigged up in a shed. It is now part of his museum. I didn't know there were any books written by him, only a small pamphlet that seemed pretty vague. He did claim to know the secret of the "Ancients" like the pyramid builders, but outside of that he pretty much shunned the spotlight and kept to himself. This is a very fascinating aspect of manipulating magnetic particles. Also just a bit of trivia, there is a decorative pattern outlining the edge of his pamphlet and some scientists claim it is not merely aesthetic but is a type of code. If someone knows of any extensive published works on Leedskaklnin I would love to know about it.
Diana Jagenberg-Trout
on November 16, 2007
at 10:49 PM

puts my spirograph effort to shame :(
on November 16, 2007
at 10:45 PM

I'm no scientist although I do find such matters inherently fascinating. This E8 pattern does seem to resonate with meaning. To see intricate patterns and fractals one only needs a strong magnifier and a humble leaf to be instantly in awe of the nature of our world and the rest of the Universe. I hope that he gets some serious funding for his work - otherwise it's genius gone to waste.
on November 16, 2007
at 10:35 PM

Surfer dudes rule! Biochemist Kary Mullis is a surfer, and he got a Nobel Prize for developing the polymerase chain reaction (PCR), one of the fundamental tools of biomedicine. Apparently LSD insights helped him do it. There often seems to be a deep connection between mystical experience and scientific discovery.
Chris Duffield
on November 16, 2007
at 10:12 PM

Any thoughts on Calculate Primes by Jim McCanney? Similar story.
Hiyohito Jerichido
on November 16, 2007
at 10:03 PM

I will refer you to my favorite Gypsy punk band, Gogol Bordello, and their song 'Super Theory of Super Everything:' "...I don't read the Bible I don't trust disciple Even if they're made of marble Or Canal Street bling From the maelstrom of the knowledge Into the labyrinth of doubt Frozed underground ocean melting - nuking on my mind Yes give me Everything Theory Without Nazi uniformity My brothers are protons My sisters are neurons Stir it twice, it's instant family!" I thought of this immediately. You can listen too:
on November 16, 2007
at 09:38 PM

I don't quite understand E8. How do you visualize something like that?
on November 16, 2007
at 09:22 PM

Leedskalnin info:
Jim Lewandowski
on November 16, 2007
at 09:16 PM

Can anyone tie this to Ed Leedskalnin's (Coral Castle) geometric shapes from his book? JL
Jim Lewandowski
on November 16, 2007
at 09:13 PM

Even if it's not bona fide (It feels closer than anything else proposed), it will open a few heads and propagate new ideas and perspectives. And who says cold fusion isn't possible, the Navy is putting money on the table.
on November 16, 2007
at 08:43 PM

Wow! I'm so happy for everyone connected with this surfer. California, surfers, UCLA, UCSD and Mike Garrett are shining right now. After so many billions of people possibly one has penetrated the veil. Child of 1968, thank you for your contribution, whatever it tuns out to be. Garrett Lisi I congratulate you.
Donna LaVoy
on November 16, 2007
at 08:33 PM

It certainly would be ironic if we discovered the 'Theory of Everything' just a moment too late to save our own existence - not that I'm a prescriber to odd 2012 predictions (I once knew someone who was convinced the world would end in 2005; lost touch with her in 2004, maybe her world did end, I don't know) - but it would be even better if it enabled us to sort out our energy conundrum, thus prolonging our own existence. As for surfing, you could say that we're all surfing waves of one sort or another!
on November 16, 2007
at 08:33 PM

What do you expect from a surfer? you sit around in nasty water all day, waiting to be eaten alive. of course you come up with a theory of everything...DoH ;)
vernon shields
on November 16, 2007
at 08:19 PM

Its interesting... probably we need to wait a little more time to decipher what the new theory looks like..
on November 16, 2007
at 08:19 PM

I'm incredibly excited by this in part because of it's simplicity (I use that term VERY loosely). I do think that there will be plenty of detractors to Mr. Lisi as a result of this fact alone. As in just about everything in this world, there's a good deal of ego wrapped up in any field of study or area of expertise. And so there will be a lot of people reacting defensively to anything contrary to their complex investments to their particular positions. There are many very capable people that have been banging their heads against a wall, in an effort to get through it, for years in this field. It would seem that some are angry right now because someone like Mr. Lisi may have just walked up and pointed to a door that was right next to the whole time. I look forward to hearing more on this.
on November 16, 2007
at 08:06 PM

I wish I understood the paper. I would like to think of myself as a Renaissance man but, unless it counts understanding the world as it was understood in the 15th/16th centuries, I fall flat. Could the complex mathematics be put in the context of something easily understandable like a zipper?
Ian Thompson
on November 16, 2007
at 07:52 PM

I don't Adam and Eve it.
freedom to prosper
on November 16, 2007
at 07:49 PM

Fascinating! The Grand Unification Theory by a surfer, not dear old Albert. But wait--I thought Paris and Britney knew everything. Ah well, just as good. It will be interesting to see how this meshes with Brian Greene's work on string theory.
on November 16, 2007
at 07:36 PM

Sounds like numerology, astrology, etc to me - pattern recognition being a function of the human brain that can be taken too far. At some point the analogy breaks down. Still, if it's true- WOW, how cool is that!!
on November 16, 2007
at 07:34 PM

Hey guys, easy... Why don't you criticize Lisi's work like good physics/mathematical? Point his equations error... ^^ Please, education. :|
on November 16, 2007
at 07:13 PM

One of the biggest problems in academia is the "publish or perish" dictum. This has a tendency to promote the status quo and keep many from reaching outside the box to find what's there. In the U.S., for example, "health care" is the sole "responsibility" of the AMA and the drug companies. Both of which are are untrustworthy and are in it for the money and don't care about finding cures for anything. If anyone finds a cure for a disease they get sued for not curing the disease "using established methods." Talk about being stuck in the box!!
on November 16, 2007
at 06:56 PM

So how does this relate to 42 with some improbability? They call it E8 but 248 in Hex is F8 F8 - E8 = 10 There are 10 + 10 mising points in the theory... 101010 binary = 42 But then again if you take E8 convert it to binary 11101000 and read it backwards 00010111 you get The Number 23
Tony Bologna
on November 16, 2007
at 06:55 PM

But it doesn't explain Timecube... I guess he was educated stupid.. ( for those who seek the truth...possibly the funniest website in existence)
Chris Kenny
on November 16, 2007
at 06:50 PM

Anything is possible, is only a matter of time.
on November 16, 2007
at 06:36 PM

I'm with the Frenchmen below -- the theory of everything is inherently silly and arrogant. That said, this surfer dude is a smart and qualified fellow and those who took cheapshots before reading his CV should feel ashamed.
on November 16, 2007
at 06:05 PM

Einstein had better hair.
on November 16, 2007
at 06:00 PM

The science establishment tends to preserve, protect, indeed even fossilize last year's concensus opinion (like the Big Bang) while real breakthroughs often come from outside, from people not even considered "real" scientists (just as bloggers were not considered "real" reporters. Who knows, maybe someday Rivero's grand unified theory of the solar system (did anyone keep a copy of that?) will be validated!
on November 16, 2007
at 05:56 PM

COOL...Huh..Still, maybe he could work on a theory how to get the Lard off all those Extreme Chunkie Dudes/Dudettes, who place so much Stress on the Omar the Tent Makers FABRIC...It's in another dimension puzzle..(Stretched Thread Theory).... OK,Surfer Beach Boy..REALLY IMPORTANT TASK..Save an endangered Specie..THIN HUMANS.. Lot's of Snow base at Whistler!!! Think Thin..Shalom
on November 16, 2007
at 05:53 PM

I'm sure this'll either be bona fide or turn out to be the "cold fusion" of the new century. Time will tell. Funny, though, that apparently anyone who surfs is thought too stupid to do high powered physics. Hate to burst your bubbles, folks, but there are very few 'Melvins' in the real world of Academia...Most of us look just like YOU...Scary, I know...
Dr. Mike
on November 16, 2007
at 05:37 PM

Were you stunned?
on November 16, 2007
at 05:11 PM

Hey, I came up with this as a young child using a spirograph! Of course I had no idea what it was. Seriously I love it when somebody shakes up the main stream of science. The more we learn about our universe, the more we find out what little we really know!
on November 16, 2007
at 05:10 PM

I suppose it's easy to take pot-shots at Lisi in an effort to make yourself feel a little better. But first you might read his CV:
on November 16, 2007
at 04:59 PM

Amazing what nasty remarks and jealousy a post like this will inspire. Seems he's also found the key to the human ego, and how to bring out people's spite. Isn't that sad? People laughed at Gallileo, too.
on November 16, 2007
at 04:57 PM

Thirty spokes share the wheel's hub It is the centre hole that makes it useful.
Lao Tzu
on November 16, 2007
at 04:47 PM

"Anyone else read the headline and think they'd stumbled onto The Onion by mistake?" Yes. I was certain that this was a joke, and had to check the address bar to make sure I wasn't at the onion.
on November 16, 2007
at 04:44 PM

Surely this will bring back LSD worship, I didnt realize scientists were so fickle, in Gila Bend, Az, the innovator would wither and die, he's so spolied! jb.
Jerry E. Barta
on November 16, 2007
at 04:43 PM

I feel much better now that I've had my E8 this morning. But seriously, what's all this nonsense about discrediting Dr. Lisi just because Mr. Highfield has less than perfect Grammar?! Utterly foolish.
on November 16, 2007
at 04:43 PM

Wait a second...did this guy say he actually has a girlfriend? Scientists are baffled!
on November 16, 2007
at 04:40 PM

You think the Dolphins will win ANY games this season??? John
John Mammoser
on November 16, 2007
at 04:39 PM

One more time, incompetent journalists report works that lie at the crackpot boundary. There is a difference between putting particles in group representations and doing physics. We can fill a library with the number of unification groups proposed so far, and it is located at Failure Street in Buffoon Land. Check the original paper by yourself (arXiv:0711.0770) and look for any prediction of something that may be measured in any experiment. End of story.
Emmet Brown
on November 16, 2007
at 04:30 PM

I feel so much better now, that we have a theory of "everything". It really means a lot to me that magnetism, radioactivity, the small force and the whopping force are now "unified".That was worrying me for a long time. I guess all my questions concerning existence are now answered with a math equation and a little diagram. You guys are so smart !
on November 16, 2007
at 04:20 PM

Here is his paper. I'm an amateur when it comes to mathematics but this is a good read and seems very promising.
on November 16, 2007
at 04:14 PM

im always suspicious when people come up with theories that explain 'everything'
gaston monescu
on November 16, 2007
at 04:02 PM

I drew one of these on my Spirograph once.
Chrissy B
on November 16, 2007
at 04:00 PM

Applying population ecology models to this discovery leads me to the following. In proving the simple theory of everything we are likely to unearth one of the gravitational particles that anchors us into the space/time continuum. Be careful where you point that Hadron cannon. . .
on November 16, 2007
at 03:55 PM

"think the point was to show that the stereotype is untrue. One does not have to be some befuddled scientist in glasses to come up with a viable theory. This guy has broken that stereotype, hopefully permanently. Posted by Andrew on November 16, 2007 9:58 AM" This is a mistake. He has a PhD in Physics, and something like that is necessary for this work. Obviously, it does not prevent him from doimg some advanced sports. "The way this article plays up the fact that he is a surfer from the lower class seems really insulting. Posted by Gideon on November 15, 2007 7:52 PM" Yes it is insulting. This thing are not done by the average Joe.
on November 16, 2007
at 03:44 PM

It looks just like the "STRING ART" of the 1970's. What's going on here?
on November 16, 2007
at 03:41 PM

I have a Spirograph too.
Tom Tuttle
on November 16, 2007
at 03:40 PM

My initial response to what surfer dude proposes was interest hampered by haven't we been there done that. I try to maintain an open mind but the more thought I give this one the more it does not add up. As I mentioned in a previous post on this blog the worlds particle physicists are already using dynamic principles for gravity application and his math is being done by students. This article is not prefaced by his place in the science or math community, instead we get a rolling preamble of his impoverished state. By his own admission, he does not know where he'll sleep at night. Hmmm. Maybe his marketing skills and ability to self promote are more brilliant than his knowledge of fundamental particles. This smacks of the poor underdog surfer dude wanting a bigger place in the sun. His Eureka moment. It's a mockery of the math world. Please, don't buy the Holy C__P Tee shirts, or the DVD. Just say no.
Diana Jagenberg-Trout
on November 16, 2007
at 03:28 PM

It seems that a large portion of this article was posted by Rebecca Sato in an article for, in what I consider to be plagiarism.
on November 16, 2007
at 02:14 PM

"Did anyone else stop reading half way through and play tetris on thier mobile?" ......only those who can't spell 'their' correctly. ;)
on November 16, 2007
at 01:53 PM

The Holy Grail - perhaps not, but noble insight and refined acumen; Based on what is knowable, yet McCutcheon explains the magnet, can the young man and his E8 theory? Not without a very extensive roadmap and Ph.D to read it ... These Comments ... leave me speechless, man's inhumanity i guess
drhall / bearcreekresearch
on November 16, 2007
at 01:17 PM

Anyone else read the headline and think they'd stumbled onto The Onion by mistake?
on November 16, 2007
at 12:57 PM

Beachbums with doctorates in physics are not your average dude...and given that one can do theoretical physics outside of a lab or even an office - and, like Einstein, without the internet, the achievement is not quite so mind-boggling as teh "Surfer dude discovers secret of the Universe!" folk would like us to believe. But it's pretty damn impressive, anyway. I'm looking forward to my New Scientist.
Ed Rybicki
on November 16, 2007
at 12:55 PM

In simple terms, the final question for any such theory is whether or not it leaves anything out, or in the case of string theory, whether it is decidable. The crux of the matter rests in whether or not there are absolute limits to what is knowable and how these limits are set. The line between the classical and quantum pictures of the universe (as demonstrated in EPR experiments) is a good starting point for discussion. The classical and quantum pictures are not reducible to a single formal theory, yet they describe the same universe, and they provide a format in which to discuss and understand why such limits must exist. The issue of decidability (the ability to draw conclusion) arises whenever we theorize the nature of infinitely contained structures. At the other end of the spectrum for size, the photon can be used as a model to explore what the term 'infinitely contained' must mean when it applies to any structure including the universe. The photon represents a single fundamental path in space. If this is the case, then we should not expect to be able to open (divide) the photon into two paths (in effect, becoming two pieces of information). Nevertheless we are, in a sense, able to do just this (for example, in the EPR half-silvered mirror experiment). The consequence is that the description of the path-structure so created cannot obey classical laws, and the paths are entangled. A quantum-mechanical description applies because it does not allow information on the relationship of the parts. In a sense, this 'conserves' what is prohibited from being known at the classical level. The mechanism (in a two element structure) is that the elements are paradoxically conjoined (i.e. entangled). Paradox is the mechanism ideally suited to allow 'absolute closure to observation' of a space constructed as fundamental. The same element of paradox always plays a role when we attempt to find a fundamental theory of everything for the universe at its largest scale As an analogy, humor represents the same format for the juxtaposition of the incongruous as found between the classical and quantum-mechanical pictures of the universe. Example: What did the Zen master say to the hot dog vendor? Answer: "Make me one with everything." We have juxtaposed one sentence in two incongruous contexts. This is not trivial. All humor is based on this process. It shows how the mechanism of paradox can be used to bind parts while prohibiting knowledge on the nature of the relationship between the parts which, nevertheless, form a true single fundamental state. In this case, the single state is the face-value of the statement, and the two parts forming the incongruous relationship are how we interpret the meaning of the statement (this causes paradox to arise). Cantor discovered the same situation when he created the very simple mathematical argument referred to as his 'diagonal slash' argument. Gödel also found a way to restate this principle in his 'incompleteness theorem'. Nature is telling us something in diverse ways. Infinite systems are necessarily self-referential and when we try to draw conclusion about this type of structure, no conclusion is possible. An example removed from physics is the relationship between science and religion (of great philosophical interest to Einstein and Bohr), and in general for the nature of truth (in absolute terms). There can be no absolute truth when we take on examination of the infinite -- the relationship between any parts that we juxtapose as natural elements within such a structure must be paradoxical. In the case of any theory of everything for the universe, some element is always left out. The element that we have properly defined by our theory and the element that is left out are always pa radoxically conjoined. The linguistic model for this is Russell's paradox. Truth is only possible when we consider what is not infinite. Doug Gill
Doug Gill
on November 16, 2007
at 12:40 PM

Did anyone else stop reading half way through and play tetris on thier mobile?
on November 16, 2007
at 12:35 PM

Wleklinski has just posted a TOE on arxiv which uses Kaluza-Klein SU(3)xSU(2)xU(1) but could be adapted to E8. The theory fills in all the rest of physics beyond the group theory and agrees with about ten different quantities of experiment.
on November 16, 2007
at 12:08 PM

It's somewhat disturbing to see the article playing up the "surfer outsmarts elite scientists" angle and downplay the fact that he's a scientist and has a doctorate himself. Anti-intellectualism should not be encouraged in this day and age.
on November 16, 2007
at 11:47 AM

I just bought a 2 x 2 Rubik cube from the Science Museum Shop. It looks so simple, but it hides its complexity. Visually, it's gorgeous. My 10 year-old son watched me twiddle a 3x3 cube this morning, and was amazed that it changed from order through some elegant patterns back to order. Perhaps if you twiddle E8, it comes back to where it was, after a bit. Eat your heart out, Erno". I'm uplifted by beautiful discoveries and masterful design. Thanks, Garrett, for my buzz-for-the-day. I'm off to buy a copy of New Scientist.
Matt Lee
on November 16, 2007
at 11:09 AM

At last - a good translation of 'Eureka'.
on November 16, 2007
at 10:31 AM

on November 16, 2007
at 10:27 AM

This is positive proof that surfers are in touch with the secrets of the Universe, doesn't it? Don't get gnarly now dude. Think up your own model if your able.
eddie surf
on November 16, 2007
at 10:22 AM

23 skidoo!
st. mokey
on November 16, 2007
at 10:08 AM

I think the point was to show that the stereotype is untrue. One does not have to be some befuddled scientist in glasses to come up with a viable theory. This guy has broken that stereotype, hopefully permanently.
on November 16, 2007
at 09:58 AM

Archimedes (born c 287 BC) is noted for crying "Eureka! I have found it!" as he took to the streets naked. Garrett Lisi (born c 1968) is noted for saying "Holy Crap, That's it!" as he took to the waves semi-naked. Seriously, I reckon "Holy Crap, That's it!" is way better than "Eureka!". It so of our time and, as Jeff points out, would make an excellent t-shirt.
on November 16, 2007
at 09:53 AM

Ah Junior, sorry mate, you need to read more. Douglas Adams propounded the theory that 9 x 6 = 42 and adherents will solemnly swear that this truly is the answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything. Don't you know where your towel is? Personally I can't wait to read Lisi's paper.
Clive Wilson
on November 16, 2007
at 09:44 AM

well from what ive read, all the science matches supposed recovered alien technology and testing of human saucer technology out at area 51. This has excited some in the ufology circles as some of the supposed leaked information regarding the usg technology program and the therories that go with it also match up with this guys theroy of everything
on November 16, 2007
at 09:32 AM

I for one am happy that there are so many smart people around. I was starting to think most were somewhere between poodle and parrot...
on November 16, 2007
at 09:20 AM

This might just work. From what I understand IANAMathematician the E8 is the most complex Lie algebra there is. If it fits with the standard model and gravity it truly is a theory of everything. I've read the paper and it is beautiful. And nature is beautiful. I sincerely hope that this theory is proven right and not the mess that is string theory. Somebody please fund his research so that he does not have to think about where he is going sleep next month. He should be working on this.
Rami Lehti
on November 16, 2007
at 09:15 AM

huh? This isnt NEW. This is old theory, but has been proven over and over again in different things. Take a very good look at a computer network for example, even the internet. Each point (node) is gathered up and folded to match another point. Keep adding to it and you will end up with a limited point. Thats all it is in a simple view. Scientists talking about this as if they didnt know? come on!
on November 16, 2007
at 09:07 AM

This is worrying. It will only exacerbate the tendency to see Physics Education as a matter of mathematics, a type of "formula falconry", selecting only those students who can develop into "equation eagles" without the concomitant conceptualization. The rest will be put off and will move into "softer" subjects. Reader please think: could you explain Ohm's law without the formula?
Robert H. Olley
on November 16, 2007
at 08:59 AM

We don't need ANOTHER theory of everything... Douglas Adams already told us it's 42... why waste more time trying to work it out?
on November 16, 2007
at 08:48 AM

Ron Paul figured all this out 20 years ago!
Mike Thinks
on November 16, 2007
at 08:42 AM

To ChrisK re: 2012 While there may not be any hard evidence that the "world will end" on 2012, for you to suggest that catastrophes have never occurred on this Earth is the height of unbelievable ignorance. There is numerous scientific evidence to suggest that the world has undergone monumental periodic calamities in the past (caused by comets, meteors etc.), and you can be sure that they WILL happen again, perhaps sooner than we all realise.
on November 16, 2007
at 08:38 AM

right on! born and raised on the island of oahu, I understand how one can look, ride, and fathom the godliness of the ocean and come up with this! Lisi is a modest guy with an idea. Give him some respect. 'No aloha' is all I have to say for you people. If you have such great ideas why don't we know what your name is? Share. Don't have hate and envy for Lisi because he decided to share. At least he has some aloha. To you who say you have bigger things to worry about, what are you doing reading this? Perhaps his ideas will help to discover finally a controlled nuclear fusion possibility. Energy crises anyone (ie unlimited clean energy)?
on November 16, 2007
at 08:37 AM

OK, so we have eight fingers and two thumbs, electron shells contain eight electrons, elegant! (except when they don't; any relationship to two thumbs?. So, what's the point of these bloggs, when pedants make comments ignorant of The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy (6x9 etc), think Einstein worked on the atom bomb, can't spell "solved", etc, etc. Err...oops. Ok, Life's a beach... Nice one Dr Lisi.
on November 16, 2007
at 08:31 AM

Einstein was a con man. Typical of his ilk. As far as thinking surfers are dumber than posts, are you working all year long stuck in a cubical or are you enjoying the beach most of the year? There are many of us that only work to be able to afford the beach time, which is free.
on November 16, 2007
at 08:22 AM

"Holy Crap, That's it!" = the new "Eureka, I've got it!"
on November 16, 2007
at 08:15 AM

It looks fairly complex, but I'm personally happy to see anything take the place of string theory. What a load of garbage.
on November 16, 2007
at 08:12 AM

Junior - 6 x 9 IS 42. In number base 13. YOU FAIL!
Martin Evans
on November 16, 2007
at 07:52 AM

James, to understand the social disintegration of the U.K., you need to read your fellow Brit, Theodore Dalrymple. Get his books Life at the Bottom, along with Our Culture, What's Left of It: The Mandarins and the Masses. Devastating. Also google the words "exposing shallowness" for a devastating analysis of today's ridiculous tattoo phenomenon.
on November 16, 2007
at 07:29 AM

Paris, November 16th Such an interesting article, but I do agree, it is not the best article ever written. What a pity it would be if this theory would be another nail in the string theory. The string theory is so beautiful and you meet it everywhere. How not to think that the notes of a Mozart Symphony are small string worlds visiting us?. When I have my students, I tell them that I will show the most dramatic events ever observed and never understood. You take a pencil in you hand, you drop it, and it fall without seeing any hand that brings it down. You see, “but it is gravity, that is nothing new”. Yet even today we still cannot understand gravity. We can describe, measure, but what it it? What a beautiful name for a theory, E8, I am waiting for more to come.
Nils Stalbrand
on November 16, 2007
at 07:11 AM

Perhaps there is something to be said here about being the outsider looking in. The problem with academia is that it can take years to do literature surveys to understand the furniture, and think about where the holes are in current understanding, and by that time you've become part of the system - seminars, mindless papers to keep research grants which can be part of work in progress (rather than the few great visonary papers that often were the bequest of the scientific giants of yore) supervision of PhD students, lecturing, internal politics, household bills etc. etc. Perhaps only by keeping the whole thing at arms length and putting conventional life on hold can truly original work be performed. This IS a form of mysticism - a leap to the whole through numbers - in an environment where mysticism is now a dirty word. We are part of this whole and somehow reflect and find more out about it. Think, for example, Mandelbrot sets and the reflection of beauty in nature that we now find in arcane mathematics. Brian Josephson the Nobel laureate, featured here in comments, knows something about that. Thank you Garrett Lisi for restoring faith in individual endeavour and finding some openness and wriggle room through the academic mill. This work may not be complete and requires more work but it does look promising and anything whch captures beauty seems to have truth associated with it. The Zen of the Tunnel surfer - or some such. This article made my day, serious or not. Let's hope professional jealousies can't pull this apart and it can be proved as part of the continued drive to find out just what IS.
on November 16, 2007
at 07:07 AM

MATT, YOU ARE DUM DUM DUM DUMB EINSTEIN: SMART, SMART, SMART Einstein had very little to do with the bomb, but he regretted signing his name, urging the president to research it as a possible end to the war.
on November 16, 2007
at 07:01 AM

Yes, this does remind me of the mystery knowledge of Alexandria in ancient Egypt. This is what influenced the Greeks like Pythagoras (golden mean & harmony of the spheres). Music is simply math we can hear. In regard to the E8 model, doesn't it remind us a bit of the ancient seed/flower of life model which contained all the platonic solids? Also, I thought scientists were already using dynamic principles for applying the string theory to gravity? Everything is just a spiral of energy, only the vibrational rate distinguishes the density. I don't want to knock this guys theory without knowing more about it. It will be interesting to see what is found through testing. Very fascinating.
on November 16, 2007
at 06:08 AM

How did he know that the math models he worked on conformed to the math E8's structural points and geometry? Are there other patterns that would have worked as well? I do not understand the math but took enough of it to see a little of what he is trying to do. The math for each individual point and what it represents in his model is relatively simple. But each point in turn fits in with the entire relationship between all the points. It seems like he may be on to something. The complexity comes inthe interelationships with each point to all the others in the patters. But each individual point is not that complex. I am a programmer and pgrgramming is of the same sort. 1's and 0's, on and off, are simple in and of themselves but eventually the simple components are sued in a hardware and software sense to work together so that computers and software programs can do verycomplex things. I'm not an expert but I do not buy into "10-dimensional universes." A simpler approach such as this is will probably work better to explain "everything." The 10 - dimensional univerese are derived from those who are looking for the answers in the "finished and complex portion of the program" rather than in the base to use the computer science analogy again.
on November 16, 2007
at 05:51 AM

He surfs,snowboards,looks handsome,is brilliant.he is quite an alrounder. Wish i were him.
on November 16, 2007
at 05:45 AM

Well I think hes figured out the universal agreement that we all have to study ourselves,Then we all will be able to understand all the things that we need to know about the universe and all the complications that goes with the territory. If you really think about it It all makes perfect sense,Wow this guy amazes me, Hes a brilliant mind.
on November 16, 2007
at 05:41 AM

The article said nothing that explained any of this surfer dude's contentions. One perusal of the article reveals the bland and non descript nature of the supposed Theory of Everything. When the 20 gaps are filled in BEFORE submitting the Theory, then you can laud a surf bum's claims. I live in Nevada and would love to hear a personal rendition of this Theory with 20 holes. That much intelligence and he lives month to month? Cart before the horse kind of deal??????
Manuel J Chavez
on November 16, 2007
at 04:56 AM

@ Junior: Apparently you've never read "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy". That's where the Ultimate Answer (42) and the Ultimate Question (what's 6 x 9?) come from. The error is part of the story. @ James: The United Kingdom is suffering because of state-sponsored mass immigration?
Jacky Tar
on November 16, 2007
at 04:55 AM

Let us leave Lisi's theory stand the tests. If it can predict anything that will be found to support his Theory of Everything then Lisi is right. Everything will be alright then. Man, you can surf here in La Union, Philippines. Or you can climb our mountains and solve mathematically our economic problems.
on November 16, 2007
at 04:47 AM

"I have deep faith that the principle of the universe will be beautiful and simple." — Albert Einstein
Stephanie Parke
on November 16, 2007
at 04:44 AM

I have briefly reviewed Dr. Lisi's paper and believe it has a great deal of scientific merit. One thing for sure is that it is indeed a geometer's dream come true in many respects. I am especially drawn by the amazingly symmetric diagrams on pages 18 and 20 which demonstrate a wonderful "quasi-inversion center of symmetry" throughout the entire structure (as well as its substructures) and at the same time, however, maintaining its chiral integrity! Truly amazing and enlightening work!
Sal Giandinoto
on November 16, 2007
at 04:19 AM

Huh? This story is clear as mud. how is the e8 pattern linked to physics. looks like someone has been working overtime with their spirograph.
on November 16, 2007
at 04:04 AM's like toootallly's like a large wave of totally rad E8 algebra comes smashing down on..on..waaaaay tootally cool fermions and like they form a bundle or connection or something m(y)'s like those dude Higgs and Grassman and their radical frames would have totally curve warped into the fourth dimension subalgebras are totally trippin man..aaweesome..
on November 16, 2007
at 03:58 AM

6x9=42 is from Douglas Adams' Hitchhikers guide to the Galaxy in case anyone is confused, ie Junior.
on November 16, 2007
at 01:50 AM

so like WHATS THE Theory?
on November 16, 2007
at 01:41 AM

I just have to wonder about the theory set by a person, who lives in Hawaii during the summer surfing & in Lake Tahoe snowboarding during the winter ...then says he hates being poor????? Hmmm ...okay, none of his playing fields are in Europe so I guess he's poor ...
Sando Khan
on November 16, 2007
at 01:18 AM

Yes, this is really cool, because we need "outsiders" to challenge and provide new ideas that aren't likely to come from the establishment. I work in similar vein, but won't claim how important the insights are. You can check my blog Tyrannogenius (at link). I need to update it, but it should have some more material soon.
Neil Bates
on November 16, 2007
at 01:09 AM

2012. Wasn't that a RUSH album from the 80's?
Peter Loughman
on November 16, 2007
at 12:58 AM

Nice read, interesting concept.
on November 16, 2007
at 12:13 AM

It does not surprise me that anyone who lives a life of non-materialism (choosing to be poor) and is connected to nature through his passion (surfing, which is one of the most enlightening experiences you can partake in) has made a profound discovery in the area of science. I'd love to talk philosophy with this guy. I'm willing to bet he has some background in eastern thinking.
on November 16, 2007
at 12:13 AM

"No disrespect.. but who cares about "the theory of everything" or anything else for that matter, when our country is being ruined and made dangerously unstable by state sanctioned mass immigration? " I think those can be explained by the doily too.
Steve Lang
on November 16, 2007
at 12:10 AM

Not close, no cigar. I don't think Earthlings will ever work this out.
on November 16, 2007
at 12:04 AM

Wow congradulations Okinawa thats got to be one of the most bizarly incoherent rants i've ever read
on November 16, 2007
at 12:03 AM

"You must always work with Mother Nature. Force is never necessary. The laws of the physical universe are really very simple." Ralph Ring
on November 16, 2007
at 12:01 AM

neat. furthermore, one quick glimpse at the spirograph design is enough to convince me that this discovery is probably compatible with the findings of Stephen Wolfram, which documents the behavior of simple computing systems vs the inner structure of the building blocks of Nature. (google for "a New Kind of Science" to find out more about Stephen Wolfram's work and resulting computer-generated pictures) in other words: this looks intuitively correct.
on November 15, 2007
at 11:58 PM

I admire anyone who can work with mathematics. I have no aptitude for it. I can undertand theories when they are explained in words, though. If this Lisi guy has worked out something testable then it is a miracle from on high. There is so much of the workings of the universe that are not understood or are over simplified. However, these multidimensional shapes, if we can call them that, are so symetrical and perfect that they can not be the product of a chaotic origin. Chaos tends toward chaos, not organization. Maybe there is a supreme intelligence.
Michael Wallick
on November 15, 2007
at 11:41 PM

I believe, Mr. Lisi can be quite correct, if we consider, how the gauge symmetries of particle fields can be realized. In Aether foam every particle is formed by undulations, i.e. it arises as a gauge particle from energy exchange between another pair of particles. The most compact structure of such particles together with their adjacent gauge particles forms a centers of closelly packed hyperspheres, i.e. the root vectors of exceptional groups. The layers of this most compact structure can therefore correspond the different particle fields at different levels of space-time. Of course, here's still a lot of work to do in understanding of inertia nature, therefore the ToE denomination of such model is probably too premature, but it's pretty consistent with common physics, the AWT in particular.
on November 15, 2007
at 11:37 PM

Hey Okinawa, an Ph. D in Physics from UC San Diego hardly makes him an average person.
on November 15, 2007
at 11:36 PM

Where I live, 'surfer dude' is a positive epithet. And this surfer dude has been working hard on difficult, involved theoretical issues in his field of study while engaged in healthful activities. I'm guessing he didn't want to get involved in all the less-pleasant stuff that being on a university faculty requires of a person. Good... more time to comtemplate those tough questions!
Nancy in Oregon
on November 15, 2007
at 11:17 PM

Damn - robbed of yet another of my Walter Mitty fantasies - working out a Theory of Everything on the back of an envelope, then telling the guys at CERN to be on the lookout for such and such a new particle predicted by my theory - and their finding it in short order - natch. Oh well, just have to go back to imagining I get that phone call from the Palace, saying Her Maj has read my blog, and would like me to take over as Prime Minister while Parliament gets its House in order.
on November 15, 2007
at 11:02 PM

i just hope that this suceeds
on November 15, 2007
at 10:42 PM

Wouldn't it be wonderful if physics, which is a science, could be translated into economics, which is'nt? Would we then all drive rollers Instead of pushing strollers?
Nicholas Buckworth
on November 15, 2007
at 10:38 PM

Because this is a public article and not a scientific journal (although I do agree with you).
on November 15, 2007
at 10:37 PM

Diggity-dank, dude!!
Lance Wavecrest
on November 15, 2007
at 10:35 PM

Great to read about the guys take on things. Dude-ifying the situation helps dress science up and certainly has people chattering. Less is often more though, cut the lifestyling and lets look at the facts :o)
on November 15, 2007
at 10:16 PM

I hate that the 2-D representation of E8 always causes so much confusion, and makes people think "Ooh its a pretty, colorful circle" when the reality is so much more complex.
on November 15, 2007
at 10:14 PM

Have you read Edgard Allan Poe's Eureka?
on November 15, 2007
at 10:05 PM

I'm reading the paper and okay - it's confusing to me - but that's also cuz I'm not a theorectically physicist. (ha ha...not even close). So first off - that should tell you something - he's smart and to those that are confused - you're not. (myself included). (what about theorectical physics don't you understand? duh?) Second, I think that a lot of people that are smart like that kinda forget about us "common folk" where their idea of "simple" is still grossly complex. Course, a Ph.D. (or two) later in the subject matter would probably help clarify things - a LOT of things. I think that the idea of the "surfer dude" is more so because you have people who spend their lives working on the next greatest/best thing and then someone like him comes along and he just does it. Kudos to him - regardless of his lifestyle and how unlikely of a source it was. I'd really like to see how they would try and prove that. (If you prove theorectical physics, wouldn't it just make it "physics"???) And if it does turn out to be what he thinks it is, I won't be surprised he ends up along the ranks of Einstein, if not just one tiny notch above him. Nevertheless - remarkable work. And so young too... *standing ovation*
on November 15, 2007
at 09:56 PM

All we are is dust in the wind. Chill out baby... Go home read a book.
Mr. Bigglesworth
on November 15, 2007
at 09:51 PM

"A simple theory of everything" and "Holy Crap! That's it!" all put together by a "surfer dude" ... sounds like another book on the way from Douglas Adams. "Holy Crap! That's It! ... But Don't Spill Your Drink on the Coaster, Please" I miss him more with each passing year.
on November 15, 2007
at 09:49 PM

Ulimately this is still just another view of the spendour of the universe. For many people this knowledge will provide a better understanding of God. The question is do we really have to solve the great unknowns of the universe to find that communion or is there another way that even an uneducated person can find?
on November 15, 2007
at 09:48 PM
on November 15, 2007
at 09:44 PM

I am not a scientist but have an interest in what is happening in science. I came across a book some years ago called "The Final Theory: Rethinking Our Scientific Legacy", by Mark McCutcheon who is a Physicist/Electrical Engineer. One review at the Final Theory website says: "This is truly an outstanding book. I have been searching for a long time to find a sensible secular scientific explanation of the universe. Currently the standard theory, representing the opinion of the majority of researches from various disciplines, has all the hallmarks of a theory in collapse. The latest information from the Chandra deep field infa-red and X-ray survey (showing complete stars and galaxies at extreme distances have a quite normal stellar population), the Sloan Digital Sky high definition galaxy survey (showing a pattern that is not indicative of current theory), gravitational anomalies from orbital data receives by deep space probes, the necessity for introducing unreal amounts of dark matter and energy to account for galactic orbital characteristics, the failure to find evidence of gravitational particles or mediators at CERN, tends to confirm this state of affairs. With the arrival of McCutcheon's book the 'Final Theory' I feel at last I have found a solid theory realistically built on simple basic principles from the ground up. McCutcheon, in an almost kindly way, leads us gently to inescapable conclusions. His clear cut, precise and rational explanations are beautiful to follow. So much so it is quite clear that the single principle elucidated by McCutcheon and from which he draws the understanding of all physical phenomena, from the atom to the galaxy and everything in-between, must surely replace our current thinking. A very telling section of the book, which has the hall mark of truth, is the knifelike dissection of the standard explanations for gravitational attraction of fixed and orbiting bodies postulated by Newton and developed by Einstein showing where assumptions are made and how they are built entirely on flawed reasoning and even erroneous mathematics -- clearly explaining why this is so, McCutcheon then shows the ease with which any orbiting body can influence every other in the universe, immediately, without time and without the tremendous unseen attraction forces being involved. The natural geometry of all bodies is to move in curved trajectories determined by size and not by mass. Einstein's "time is relative" is replaced by McCutcheon's "size is relative". Space is again regulated to being absolutely nothing as it should be and time is again constant throughout the universe. But it doesn't stop here. His analysis of the current theory of atomic structure, and replacement for it including chemical bonding is brilliant. " You can read the first chapter of this book at this URL: When I read this article I wondered if Garrett had any exposure to Mark's 'Final Theory'. As I said, I wouldn't know since I am not a scientist and I have only read the first chapter of Mark's book. However it is interesting to see some advances being made in our ideas about the universe. It seemed to me that we had wandered too far from the truth, a bit like modern art, or is it post-modern? I can't keep up with all the innovations.
David WA Robertson
on November 15, 2007
at 09:41 PM

Junior - You have obviously not read the Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy. The answer *is* 42 - "what do you get if you multiply six by nine" was the question as derived from a last generation product of the organic computer designed to work out the question, Followed by "6x9? 42? I always thought there was something fundementally wrong with the universe.". btw - as pointed out in the script book - 6x9 does equal 42 - if you use base 13.
Mike S.
on November 15, 2007
at 09:38 PM

The surfing image is interesting- didn't Fritjof Capra, author of "The Tao of Physics", get his first inspiration from being by the sea as the first chapter of his book describes? Maybe moving to the beach is really good for the soul and deep thought. Having dropped out of two universities, it would be nice to see that the text books that were tediously dictated to me,word for word by Professors and Doctors of Physics in the lectures I attended, were ,in fact, wrong and the real answers are maybe much more exciting.
on November 15, 2007
at 09:36 PM

Found this fitting:
on November 15, 2007
at 09:34 PM

Bii, the fencer. . . uhh, since when do you ask particle physicists meteorological questions, and you know, I never would have guessed that you were a fencer had you not told us, seeing that it is part of your username. . .
The Chode
on November 15, 2007
at 09:31 PM

Everybody knows the answer ist 42. Why searching the formular?
Stupid bloody german Hans
on November 15, 2007
at 09:25 PM

wahhhhh!!!!! u just need to leave time and space alone!!!! wahhhh!!!! just stop it!!!! wahhhhhh!!!! you think that just because you're so smart you can just figure it all out and then mess it all up!! how dare you!!!! stop it... stop-it-right- now!!!! wahhhhh!!!! time and space never did anything to you!!! wahhhh!!!
chris crocker
on November 15, 2007
at 09:22 PM

on November 15, 2007
at 09:08 PM

What about E7?
on November 15, 2007
at 08:57 PM

Bob Beadle wrote: > Why is the guy's > lifestyle-sport > of interest? It would not be of interest if this was a University physics professor who just happened to like surfing on the weekends. This guy chose to forego a traditional academic career in favor of a surf/ski bum lifestyle. No one was expecting the next major breakthrough in physics to come from some guy who lives in his car...does he even have a car???
on November 15, 2007
at 08:51 PM

I'm not surprised at all by the Dude's lifestlye. One common thread I've noticed in smart people is that they're beyond impressing others. Excuse the generalisation but they generally do what they please, and it happens to not be working in a cubicle. No matter what the title on the door, you still have to show up and account to someone.
on November 15, 2007
at 08:46 PM

So he came up w/ some grand theory of what?! I'd like to see how he'd do in a boxing ring. Then maybe people would realize he's not such a bad-ass...I don't know. Sometimes I wonder where peoples' priorities are...
Better Than You
on November 15, 2007
at 08:46 PM

I come up with great, earth shattering revelations and theories all the time. In fact I came up with what held the universe together years ago. Its shit. The world is full of it. Everybody I know is full of it. Wanna be poser surfer dudes too. I figure this metro will get his picture up in the Pet Rock Hall of Fame of useless ideas that made money.
Bell Debolt
on November 15, 2007
at 08:40 PM

Thank you Simon for trying to focus people on the issues instrumental to maintaining a country where these scientific theories can be bred (freedom of speech, education, etc). I am with you on this. If things don't improve here asap I'm taking my talent to Australia.
on November 15, 2007
at 08:34 PM

I love the fact that someone outside the establishment may be on to something. There are so many different ways to figure things out...but of course, more things figured out usually mean more questions. What is the saying, "We don't know one millionth of 1 percent of anything" - can't remember who
on November 15, 2007
at 08:33 PM

HAHA .. yer not even close ....
on November 15, 2007
at 08:28 PM

The article's title is more important to understanding the person who chose to focus on the surfing than the man it's about. Escape much from your work? Unless, of course, we all really do want to believe that you can spend your life surfing and still be important in the world. This guy has a PhD in theoretical physics. Maybe he does more work while skiing and surfing than most people do by sitting at desks and incessantly citing works of other fame-seeking academics. Way to go Dr. Lisi! Even if it doesn't hold up, you've got us thinking.
on November 15, 2007
at 08:26 PM

When I see the heavens The work of thy hands The Moon and the Stars which you have made. What is man that you should keep him in mind Mortal man that you have made him.
on November 15, 2007
at 08:25 PM

Surfer dude, psh; ignorant stereotype. That must mean that Einstein was a sex addict.
Shawn Commenter
on November 15, 2007
at 08:23 PM

Success comes to a lucky few; but, only the prepared mind is available to capture the serendipitous windfall. Doctor Garrett Lisi seems to belong to that fortunate category,like Albert Einstein (who barely beat out Henri Poincare and David Hilbert for the winning of the laurels for General Relativity). This leaves me all the more awed and giddy reading about the results that Dr. Lisi has obtained mapping the particles and forces of the Standard Model onto all but twenty of the 248 "points" of this mathematical object, a Lie group that underlies perhaps Mother Nature's symmetrical grand design in spacetime. This seems to have the right smell... After the messy minutiae have been cleaned up and ordered in just the right way, everything seems so simple and elegant in hindsight. But that is always the case. Such it was when Sheldon Glashow's, Abdus Salam's and Steven Weinberg's earlier Nobel-winning-insight into a less complex symmetry group that midwifed the Standard Model into existence by uniting the electromagetic, weak and strong forces together from a bewildering menagerie of particles. It seems that the forces of nature exhibit their uniqueness and separateness in 3D-spacetime due to so-called "symmetry breaking." The Standard Model could very well turn out to be a subset of Doctor Lisi's larger, more complex symmetry group, mathematically proven by Sophus Lie, the brilliant Norwegian mathematician of the nineteenth century, to be Platonic nature's ultimate symmetrical object. If this in deed turns out to be the case after all, then Gallileo was right about God when he asserted that Nature is written in the language of mathenmatics. The Large Hadron Collider in Geneva, Switzerland/France should soon tell us whether Doctor Lisi, a charming young maverick of science, will merit his own Nobel Prize by presciently predicting the properties of the remaining twenty points of the E8 mathematical construct. The two and three dimensional "shadows" of this complex 248-dimensional Platonic object are unbelievably beautiful; let's hope that they are also truth. Tom L, Warner Robins, Georgia
Thomas Ledbetter
on November 15, 2007
at 08:17 PM

The universe can not be unified by a single theory. We cannot even unify the planet. Why bother? String theory is just that...something to string us along. I don't think Garrett Lisi has enough to do all day.
Doug Garr
on November 15, 2007
at 08:17 PM

Junior is obviously so junior he/she doesn't know the essential guide book to hitchhike the universe! And just what is supposed to be happening in 2012?
on November 15, 2007
at 08:15 PM

This guy goes against all stereotypes. Your average sufer is not a PhD and your average PhD is not a surfer. Thats pretty cool. Your title seems to imply that "average surfer dude = dumb" though. That ain't cool. Also, Nevada is pretty far away from any beach the last time I checked. That being said it made an interesting read.
on November 15, 2007
at 08:12 PM

If Lisi turns out be right it would be kind of neat considering that the E8 visualization looks like a mandala (traditional images meant to be metaphorical representations of the cosmos)
on November 15, 2007
at 08:07 PM

well, as a Professor (Emeritus) I long ago knew that hiring practices at college and universities were tied what schools, who your parents were, how meek you were, how sycophantic, posing the least threat to insecure administrators, or how much cleavage and leg you showed at your interviews. So perhaps that explains his lack of success at being on faculty somewhere. Too bad, maybe some university will snap him up, because even if he is wrong the ideas and theory show a rare mind at work, unless he is pals with the writer of the column.
Professor Emeritus P. Bagnolo
on November 15, 2007
at 08:06 PM

This is great stuff. I always have thought that the universe would turn out to be simple. We are the ones that complicate it.
on November 15, 2007
at 08:04 PM

Unless I hear to the contrary from Prof Marcus du Sautoy, of Oxford University, I'll have to provide an even simpler unified field theory, encompassing everything. Hold your breath... Here it is: O
Abd el-Salam Kemal
on November 15, 2007
at 08:01 PM

Regarding my previous post about not being able to compile the Tex file (whatever !, as the file extension is .0770; source code looked like Tex), if you just rename the extension as pdf, then acrobat can read it. On a first glance through, this is fairly complex stuff (Post Grad Physics/Maths knowledge required to actually try and understand it (and some sort of brain extension), I would think). The article possibly implied that the whole thing was simple.!!!.Quote "...does not require highly complex mathematics". I was hoping to be able to write a smallish Python script or C# prog to simulate the whole thing, but don't have a spare supercomputer at hand. Damn !!!
Bill Teleki
on November 15, 2007
at 07:53 PM

The way this article plays up the fact that he is a surfer from the lower class seems really insulting.
on November 15, 2007
at 07:52 PM

Sorry, Junior. The reference is from the Hitchhikers Guide. You fail on a grander scale.
on November 15, 2007
at 07:49 PM

Only God!
Sid and Donna
on November 15, 2007
at 07:43 PM

Symmetry can be shown with a much simpler equation, some may call it the "theory of everything" - but I simply call it: The CAL SEMO THEORY S = E (M/PHI) - [PHI is the relative distance] - so simple...
on November 15, 2007
at 07:37 PM

EDUCATION 9/91-5/99 University of California, San Diego 5/99 Ph.D. in Physics, G.P.A. - 3.9 Honors Fellowships - UC Regents fellowship, ARCS Foundation fellowship 9/86-6/91 University of California, Los Angeles 6/91 B.S. in Physics and B.S. in Mathematics, G.P.A. - 3.9 (4.0 in Physics and 4.0 in Mathematics) Academic Honors Phi Beta Kappa Sigma Pi Sigma Golden Key Graduation Honors College Honors Highest Honors in Physics Highest Honors in Mathematics Summa Cum Laude Kinsey Prize for The Outstanding Graduating Senior in Physics
Tim Tata
on November 15, 2007
at 07:35 PM

looks like the model of the iching....
on November 15, 2007
at 07:33 PM

The explosion outwards from the centre, except there is no centre.
John Waterman
on November 15, 2007
at 07:31 PM

@ Bob Beadle "Why is the guy's lifestyle-sport of interest?" Don't play dumb. You know exactly why it is of interest. It pulls in the readers; it's a tag line. The story is interesting and I'll be glad to see its progression.
Jeff Shaw
on November 15, 2007
at 07:30 PM

The title of his paper "An Exceptionally Simple Theory of Everything" is a pun. His theory relies on E8, which, in mathematician's jargon is the largest exceptional simple Lie algebra over the complex field. The jargon words "exceptional" and "simple" have a special techinal meaning.
Shawn Westmoreland
on November 15, 2007
at 07:30 PM

I am worried about this being part of the 'inifinite monkeys theorim' (look it up on Wikipedia). Go 60GB of data is a lot of numbers.
Jonathan Dickinson
on November 15, 2007
at 07:28 PM

Because surfing and astrophysics aren't typically both practiced simultaneously. Geez
on November 15, 2007
at 07:19 PM

Very exciting...This seems to me to be the kind of pattern that could be reflected at both micro and macro levels. I'll be waiting to see what happens! And, even in our war-torn, globally-warmed-over world, any breakthrough that helps us understand it is a reason for hope.
Dakota Lifestyle: Beyond the Weather
on November 15, 2007
at 07:15 PM

Junior 4:00 PM You really need to read up on your Hitchhikers' Guide! The meaning of life (the ultimate answer) is 42 and the ultimate question is "what is 6 x 9?". I don't know if you lose, but Peter Rutter certainly wins in the sense of humour stakes.,_the_Universe,_and_Everything
on November 15, 2007
at 07:15 PM

Wow, so Pythagoras was in the ball park. I'm taking the ret of the day off.
on November 15, 2007
at 07:10 PM

The title of this article is absurd. I would have been just as interested if it read, "Man stuns physicists..." Some of you commenting here sound retarded too.
on November 15, 2007
at 07:07 PM

Well, if this proves out it means 2 things. 1. God not only invented the kiss principal, he practices it. 2. He's having a good laugh watching us insignificant humans trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill.
on November 15, 2007
at 07:05 PM

Can I just congratulate Dr Lisi on finding the final theory. I have been up all night checking it, and can find no fault in the calculations. This suggests that string theory must be wrong, what a pity.
Dr Luboš Motl
on November 15, 2007
at 07:01 PM

"Why is the guy's lifestyle-sport of interest? Part of a stereotype that a surfer must be dumb as post? News for you, stereotyping intelligence as odd because salt, sand and sea are involved- IS, in fact, dumb as a post." It made you want to read it, Mr.Beadle
Mike L.
on November 15, 2007
at 06:54 PM

Matt T.
on November 15, 2007
at 06:49 PM

on November 15, 2007
at 06:47 PM

The surfer dude is an image he himself cultivates. Doesn't say anything about his obvious intellect.
on November 15, 2007
at 06:47 PM

Forgive me - there's a difference bewteen *observing* that a natural phenomena matches a mathemtical pattern, and *explaining* the match in terms of sum underlying understanding. You've elegantly illustrated Lisi's inspiration to fit the standard model onto the E8; is there any in layman's terms to explain *why* the particulate structure of the universe maps on to this *particular* symmetry? For example - how would the 20 missing nodes map to as-yet-discovered particles? Which charateristics of the node map to which charactistics of the particle (and why?)
on November 15, 2007
at 06:32 PM

i'm more fascinated by how the deranged and mentally ill can be lucid enough to figure out how to comment on Telegraph articles.
Gob Bluth
on November 15, 2007
at 06:28 PM

Is there somewhere, that can download an 'unbroken link' pdf from, as the Tex file will not compile on my version of Tex for some reason ?. I'd like to read and try and understand the whole thing, if possible.
Bill Teleki
on November 15, 2007
at 06:24 PM

i'm slightly lost, probably because i'm not really into science all that much. but this article jumped out at me and it seems pretty interesting. i don't know if he's right or not, but hey you never know. also i noticed someone asked why saying he was a "surfer dude" was important to the article. i don't think it really is important to the content of the article itself, but it probably helps people relate to it a little better. i think showing him as the "surfer dude" kind of shows him in a light we can all relate to, like hey he's just a normal guy and he came up with this incredibly involved idea. maybe i'm wrong. but that's what i got from it.
Lauren Jade
on November 15, 2007
at 06:20 PM

I have a truly marvelous proof of this proposition which this comment area is too small to contain.
Pierre de F.
on November 15, 2007
at 06:17 PM

If this guy were working for a university, he would probably have had to be politically correct and go along with the status quo. A group of university professors and researchers plus string theory equals a concensus of liberal nuts, much like man-made global warming theory.
on November 15, 2007
at 06:11 PM

"Surfer Dude"......? Why is the guy's lifestyle-sport of interest? Part of a stereotype that a surfer must be dumb as post? News for you, stereotyping intelligence as odd because salt, sand and sea are involved- IS, in fact, dumb as a post.
Bob Beadle
on November 15, 2007
at 06:05 PM

To those wondering about the four dimensions of space time vs. the dimensions of the E8 ... you fold up the E8, and it fits almost perfectly. There are only 20 spots on the E8 that don't match up with current known particles, and he is now working on predicting the masses of those particles based upon where they would fall on the E8. This is why the theory may actually be testable.
on November 15, 2007
at 05:57 PM

"Holy Crap, That's it!" Surely there's a t-shirt coming with that emblazoned upon the chest.
on November 15, 2007
at 05:47 PM

The universe (E8) is a doily. Does this theory explain where the missing 98% of the universe is hiding?
on November 15, 2007
at 05:30 PM

I am a fencer. I know nothing of such things. If he's so clever, let him explain to me why in this age of global warming is it so bloody cold? I can hardly get my mattock in.
Bii The Fencer
on November 15, 2007
at 05:29 PM

It would have helped to define even the term dimensions in this when all you provide is E8 and a flat diagram that looks like a very flashy Spirograph (remember those?) generation product.
simon coulter
on November 15, 2007
at 05:27 PM

No disrespect.. but who cares about "the theory of everything" or anything else for that matter, when our country is being ruined and made dangerously unstable by state sanctioned mass immigration? WHERE ARE THE LARGE SCALE PUBLIC PROTESTS? DON'T WE CARE ABOUT LOSING OUR COUNTRY??? I've almost lost interest in ALL other issues.
on November 15, 2007
at 05:17 PM

@ okinawa: and pretty blonde girls with curls cannot be brainiacs ? btw i grew up on okinawaw - did some of my best thinking playing on the pacific shore - reminds me of last words of newton: "I don't know what I may seem to the world. But as to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore and diverting myself now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than the ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me" - and archimedes: "Don't disarrange my circles!"
on November 15, 2007
at 05:15 PM

A correspondent informs me that I was partly wrong about this paper's treatment by the physics preprint archive. It was not totally blocked by the archive's censorship mafia, but merely 'kicked into the long grass'. It was uploaded into the section devoted to high energy theory (hep-th) by the author, but then moved from there to a section designated for 'non-serious contributions'. Alas, there is no mechanism in place for judging the judges, who are thus free to act as little dictators. This is bad for science, as I said once in a letter given pride of place in Nature journal (see the News page of the web site, below, devoted to this affair), which they simply ignored!
Brian Josephson
on November 15, 2007
at 05:12 PM

pretty mandala - mandalas have a long history in eastern philosophy/religion -
on November 15, 2007
at 05:04 PM

I had never before heard of Garrett Lisi, but I suspect that we will all soon hear a lot more of him, one way or the other. Right or wrong, I'm happy to know that someone is looking for more simple explanations than those proposed by the mathematical morass of string theory, and I think Dr. Einstein will rest more easily.
Jack Paden
on November 15, 2007
at 05:01 PM

Wow, this is pretty great, especially coming from a "beach bum". Even if he is proven wrong, at least he has the science field talking about it.
Dave Nofmeister
on November 15, 2007
at 04:57 PM

What in the world is with this 2012 garbage? The world has a long, vaunted history of not coming to an end. Damned fools.
on November 15, 2007
at 04:52 PM

Does this new theory of everything explain where the supposed build up of electric charge comes from on high tension cross country electric power cables?
David Tombe
on November 15, 2007
at 04:50 PM

Fascinating! I am not a mathematician, but this model seems to me intuitively a potentially vast extension of Buckminster Fuller's architectural tensegrity models. Tensegrity cellular structure also seem to mirror the design of Garrett Lisi's E8 pattern. Exciting, indeed (from a non-mathematician's intuitive layman perspective). I look forward to learning more.
Bob Garner
on November 15, 2007
at 04:48 PM

Okinawa on November 15, 2007 11:14 AM ..and I suppose you think anyone wearing a suit must be highly intelligent?
on November 15, 2007
at 04:38 PM

It certainly makes sense to me that a person that can understand and ride waves[a complex moving three dimensional fluid geometry problem], would also have great insight into theories such as this. I do object to the use of the term "dude", however. This is a pejorative word used by kooks and inland queeves. Give the guy the respect he deserves.
joe gack
on November 15, 2007
at 04:35 PM

He is correct. Terry
on November 15, 2007
at 04:30 PM

I can't judge if it's clever, but it's beautiful : such a mathematical mix of poetry and science is amazing ! And did somebody see the extraordinary resemblance of the E8 root system with the cosmogonic design of the universe by Saint Hildegard of Bingen, a visionary of the XIIth century ? ... Even more amazing!!!
on November 15, 2007
at 04:16 PM

Peter Rutter, you particle theory genius you. 6 x 9 is 54. Not 42. YOU FAIL.
on November 15, 2007
at 04:00 PM

"An exceptionally simple theory of everything" - right! Anyone seen the paper: It's scarily complicated. Event the abstract leaves me a burbling wreck: All fields of the standard model and gravity are unified as an E8 principal bundle connection. A non-compact real form of the E8 Lie algebra has G2 and F4 subalgebras which break down to strong su(3), electroweak su(2) x u(1), gravitational so(3,1), the frame-Higgs, and three generations of fermions related by triality. The interactions and dynamics of these 1-form and Grassmann valued parts of an E8 superconnection are described by the curvature and action over a four dimensional base manifold.
on November 15, 2007
at 03:47 PM

Figures that the article first says how easy it is to understand and then goes on to not even attempt to explain what the theory actually is. Thanks, lazy journalism. And hey, what's up with the 2012 kooks commenting here? Go back to your forum and leave the real science to the rational.
Kevin Loaf
on November 15, 2007
at 03:41 PM

The most complex, is in itself; simple. Crop circles are simple, yet uniquly complicated. Since we live in a gravity environ it only makes basic sense for that force to play a part in the total equation. It is nice to see that a brilliant mind can enjoy the board and activly participate in what is a physics laden sport. For all you high brow lab rats with pasty skin, personal solar energy input is very important to overall mental potential. The surfer dude headline as a bit of a put down, actually works great; for it gets people reading the story and the theory. Any PR is good PR and when you have something important to offer it is worth everything. Lisi enjoys his life and that is why his outlook is fresh.
Alan White
on November 15, 2007
at 03:27 PM

How exactly does "it does not require more than one dimension of time and three of space, when some rival theories need ten or even more spatial dimensions" square with "E8 encapsulates the symmetries of a geometric object that is 57-dimensional and is itself is 248-dimensional".
G. Laudner
on November 15, 2007
at 03:24 PM

Its easier to be creative and innovative when u havent been absorbed by the mainstream.Thing is to question the stablishment all the time. On the other hand, I also believe that by experiencing the universe in a sensorial ordinary gives more than just reading mathematics books. Science starts being an individual activity, and then comes to be a social when u start to do some research and stuff, so I really think being a surfer guys really helps here!!! Anyway, physics is one of the blessings from Allah and we are all blessed since we can at least imagine how big our universe can be! subhallah
on November 15, 2007
at 03:05 PM

Interesting in the extreme. Even if it is not the "final" answer, if even some of the particle predictions come off, it will still have been a damn useful tool, and a Nobel to boot. I keep hoping I'll live long enough to see the next big physics breakthorugh. I do think they are getting close. Physics in many ways is where it was right before Newton or Einstein. A thousand theories to explain a thousand phenomonae, but the the breakthrough happens and the major rules turn out to fit on an index card. I.e., Newton's 3 laws, Einstein's E=MCsq'd, etc. Yes, I know that is all a criminal oversimplification, but I'm typing a comment, not a thesis. ;-)
on November 15, 2007
at 03:04 PM

Since this construction is not reproducing new dimensions, but mapping out variable symmetries,does this finally end reconstructive, posteriori determinations, and bring back priori, universal principle theory, whose application could rescue all the social and macro theorists, who believed in an underlying principle, from Smith to Karl Marx, with their macro theories, and Labor theories of wealth? Will the social principle, or universal principle rescue Marxism? the Enlightenment from its relative links, variable symmetries,that were used by micro analysts,class apologists, class ideologists, to avoid, deny the the unfifying link of everything?
Eric Albert
on November 15, 2007
at 03:02 PM

Sorry, surfer dude, but I prefer Kurt Vonnegut's explanation: I wanted all things To seem to make some sense, So we all could be happy, yes, Instead of tense. And I made up lies So that they all fit nice, And I made this sad world A Par-a-dise. God made mud. God got lonesome. So God said to some of the mud, "Sit up!" "See all I've made," said God, "the hills, the sea, they sky, the stars." And I was some of the mud that got to sit up and have a look around. Lucky me, lucky mud. ...etcetera
on November 15, 2007
at 02:55 PM

Thank you Matt for the gibberish in capital letters. I am rather rather puzzled that the intro. states "it does not require more than one dimension of time and three of space" but later on it says that it is based on E8 that has an eight-dimensional mathematical pattern. Can anyone cast any light on this?
William Garrett
on November 15, 2007
at 02:55 PM

Undergrad at UCLA - do you Brits know how hard it is to get into UCLA? It's nearly 65% Asian (Chinese) with A+ grade point averages.
Lark Angel
on November 15, 2007
at 02:50 PM

Is the answer to his solution '42'?
on November 15, 2007
at 02:43 PM

What's the big deal? I discovered E8 when I was a little kid, it's called a spirograph game.
on November 15, 2007
at 02:18 PM

on November 15, 2007
at 02:07 PM

Too late my idealistic friend. The moronic leaders already have the ammo to destroy it all. And in light of geopolitical conflict and development appear to make 2012 a fact instead of myth. However, as one who is fascinated by mathematics simply because of my inability to be good at it and my reverence for knowledge, you go surferboy!! or any other geniuses being described as "ordinary person" etc. I am an ordinary person with no degrees but I count researchers amongst my heroes. God only knows the results of these incredible , fabulous discoveries could make a more peaceful world in the long run. We have nothing to lose. And as one of my historical heroes said, "All we have to fear is fear itself." The genie has been out of the bottle and if Einstein hadn't done it, some other researchers and scientists were on the verge of producing it as well. Thank God the U S and Einstein came up with it first as we could have been speaking German right now. signed : and ordinary person.
John C DePaolo
on November 15, 2007
at 01:51 PM

mines a glass of cool, not cold, Chassagne Montrachet premier cru Les Embrazees Bernard Morey 2004 i tasted it last night and that is the answer to my little universe nuff said
chris leather
on November 15, 2007
at 01:03 PM

Oh how we ponder our marvelous existance, Closer yet to its eternal persistance. Imaginations on the verge of magic, And still somehow strangely tragic. Everyday we are faced with our imperfection, And fail to find that correction. If only the answers we sought could save us from ourselves. Just a thought.
on November 15, 2007
at 01:02 PM

Hey Stu, can you really call a beachbum with a doctorate in theoretical physics an "average" person?
Mike Green
on November 15, 2007
at 12:33 PM

But I thought everyone knew that the answer to Life the Universe and everything was 42 ie 6 x 9 !
Peter Rutter
on November 15, 2007
at 11:41 AM

He's quite lucky that the physics preprint archive (the first link above) didn't bar his paper. There is officially no refereeing of papers, and yet the string theorists who run the archive have a nasty habit of blocking submissions advocating alternative approaches, even when the papers concerned have already been accepted by journals.
Prof. Brian Josephson
on November 15, 2007
at 11:38 AM

Gravity discovered by apple falling on head. Water displacement theory by too hot bath water. Penicillin by decaying sandwiches on desk. Simple events leading to explanation of complex issues seems to work pretty well. Good luck to the surfer, it sounds as good as anything else on offer.
Stu no Science
on November 15, 2007
at 11:31 AM

Wow, this is amazing stuff. I love reading about average people doing amazing things.
on November 15, 2007
at 11:14 AM

on November 15, 2007
at 10:39 AM

Symmetry like that would be a wonderful solution. I eagerly await it being giving the acid test.
on November 15, 2007
at 10:36 AM

Fascinating stuff, especially bearing in mind that in the mystery schools of Ancient Egypt it was recognised that mathematics and music constitute a universal language, and like the artists wheel are allied to vibratory rates.
on November 15, 2007
at 10:17 AM

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  1. Jason, keep an eye also on this topic at


  2. Hah! Awesome. Those comments could use a home here as well. Another archive, coming up.

  3. Updated December 8, 2009. There's a new comment from well-known sockpuppet "Chris".

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