Friday, February 19, 2010

Golden Ratio extravaganza

In the most recent comment in the FQXi archive, Ray Munroe has directed attention to another FQXi thread.

Ray Munroe wrote on Feb. 18, 2010 @ 22:57 GMT
Dear Sockpuppets on both sides - friendly and unfriendly,

Check out this FQXi discussion between REAL PEOPLE: Dr. Ray Munroe, Georgina Parry, Steve Dufourny, and Tom H Ray about the Golden Ratio.

Have Fun!


There's too much numerology and vague philosophical maundering there for my taste, but if you like that kind of thing, or perhaps just want a good laugh, go have a look. Naturally, El Naschie's name does come up pretty often. Usually Ray brings it up.

Translate English to Arabic

محمد النشائى El Naschie Watch محمد النشائي El Naschie News محمد النشائى
محمد النشائي All El Naschie All The Time محمد النشائى


  1. Dear Jason,

    I like the Donald Duck nostalgia. I guess you think of Disney World when you think of Ray in Florida, just like I think of Starbucks Coffee when I think of Jason in Seattle.

    I understand your perspective. All small prime numbers are important, so why is (1+SQRT(5))/2 any more important than any other combination of small primes that we could mix together?

    It arises from the geometry of the pentagon. Draw a pentagon to scale. Number the vertices 1 through 5 consecutively clockwise around the pentagon. Measure the distance from vertex 1 to 3, and divide by the distance from vertex 1 to 2. That ratio is phi=1.618...

    The Petrie pentagon represents the 4-dimensional 4-simplex - a relevant Spacetime structure. The five-fold pentagonal symmetry exists in several important groups, such as the icosahedron, H4 and E8.

    Fibonacci's sequence 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, ... has several ratios that are similar to phi 3/2 ~ 5/3 ~ 8/5 ~ 13/8 ~ 21/13 ~ 1.618... and El Naschie makes use of double part of that sequence 4, 6, 10, 16, 26, 42 and indicates similarities with the number of String Theory dimensions.

    Is all of this numerology? Or is it an obvious truth that is built into the very framework of reality? You have your perspective, and I have mine.

    Have Fun!


  2. For Ray.
    I have looked at your two papers in CSF and I found equations are not numbered as the style of the great man (El naschie). Have you noticed that in El naschie's papers equations are not numbered since you used some of them as references. Is it the style of CSF or El naschie's style. How you can go through a reference of 28 pages where equations are not numbered. Also your paper have only one line abstract, maybe this is not a defect but I noticed that is typical in CSF (One line abstract).

    It is not a surprise that you can relate any number to golden number, at least you could write it as a power of golden number.

  3. Dear Anonymous,

    Thank you for your feedback. I normally number Equations, Tables and Figures. Those two papers were short, and I only numbered Figures and Tables. I don't recall now if CS&F asked me to drop equation numbers, or if I chose to do so myself because the papers were so short and contained so few relevant equations.

    Certainly, we can 'fit' any data point with a power of phi, pi, e, 2, 10 - whatever we choose. Those 'fits' become more interesting if patterns emerge. Physics is about fitting data with patterns, and then building models/theories to explain said patterns. A relevant example is Coldea et al's recent report on quasi-1D-Ising chain quasi-particles whose mass ratios approached the Golden Ratio at low temperatures. Coldea et al related this ratio to an emergent E8 symmetry. E8 contains pentagonal sub-symmetries, and thus has geometrical sub-structures that contain the Golden Ratio.

    Have Fun!


  4. Hi Ray, I didn't choose Donald Duck specifically, I was just looking for a funny variation of Da Vinci's Vitruvian Man, which has some golden ratios in the body proportions. It could just as easily have been a Simpsons or South Park one, or... there are a zillion of them. So it wasn't because you are in Florida. I'm not taunting you personally, just poking fun at the golden ratio business, which I see as amusing.

    Anonymous, At least some papers in CSF do turn out to have numbered equations, including this one by El Naschie

    but often they are not numbered, as you noticed.

    Not numbering equations in a 28 page paper is crazy. But he has no formal training in math or physics beyond the undergraduate level. His numbering style, like his theories, is completely original.

  5. Please give a look at

    The one before the last comment is interesting

    Sorry "Charles" you've stumbled on someone who actually knows what the experiment which revealed the "golden mean in quantum mechanics" is about. And it ain't got nothing to do with anything El Naschie has ever written as far as I can tell. It's certainly not "fundamental": it's a discovery about the perturbation of the critical point of a transverse Ising model where the particle spectrum is related to an E8 spectrum. It's very cool, and good solid research as opposed to, in my opinion, the garbage that is created by the love of your life.

    Please, sockpuppets, if you're going to spam here, at least make them interesting and not just love letters to your leader.

    Posted by: Dave Bacon | February 19, 2010 12:16 PM

  6. Awesome. Deserves its own post.

  7. I have recently learned that Da Vinci's Vitruvian Man doesn't have any obvious golden ratio significance, but it is often erroneously said that it does.

  8. Dear Dave,

    Coldea et al's second reference: A.B. Zamolodchikov, International Journal of Modern Physics A, Vol 4, No 16 (1989) pp. 4235-48 explains the origin of the Golden Ratio in the masses of these magnetic Ising quasi-particles. E-Infinity is not required to make this calculation - it is fully consistent with E8.

    You say "It's certainly not *fundamental*", but I assert that Particle Physics has borrowed *fundamental* ideas from Solid State quasi-particles.


    Anti-matter can be thought of as 'holes' (using Solid State physics terminology)in the Dirac Sea, and

    Higgs theory was a reapplied idea from BCS Superconductivity theory (with 'fundamental' scalars rather than composite ones).

    Because solitons are boundary property phenomena, they are related to quasi-particles - which are bulk property phenomena.

    Dear Jason,

    I still like the Vitruvian Donald Duck, even if it isn't relevant. We can think of Disney World for Ray in Florida, or Starbucks Coffee for Jason and Dave in Seattle.

    Have Fun!


  9. Hi Ray, I like it too.

    To make sure Dave sees your comment, you should post it on Quantum Pontiff as well.

  10. Hello,

    please check the work of Marko Rodin !
    Youtube -> "Marko Rodin" & "Rodin Coil"

    Numbers are real and represent natures habbits of enegery movement. Musical ratios explain the magic in harmonics. Numerology through Rodin comes to a point of most coherent system man known. Phi fibonacci, all base systems even color spectrums, geometric pattern of all kind, infinity and polarization, fractal and holograpic shown in the underlying pattern of the 2 systems. Scientists, and mathematicans all over the world are speakless when their understanding raises.

    Vortex based mathematics VBM is the revolution of science numberology.
    Marko Rodin Coil VBM

    be blessed

  11. Oh, vortex mathematics. I've already heard of that (and of the "great teacher" Rodin, of course) from a local crackpot. LOL

  12. The video I linked to above is the first in a series of 44. I am hooked. I have watched 29 so far. Not only Rodin himself is entertaining, but the credulous buffoonery of his audience is a marvel to behold. They stop him and ask questions that are soooo funny... you can't make this stuff up.

  13. Jason, I suspect Rodin runs something comparable to a religious sect. That would explain the reactions of his audience.